Is DA/SA Obsolete (In Terms of Sales)?

[M2CattleCo]

I, for one, appreciate your feedback.

Hearing over and over that it is all training and that trigger mechanism (i.e. SCIENCE!) have nothing to do with it drives me nuts. "Its a software problem not a hardware problem", seriously? Yes, if all else is equal it is likely a software problem, BUT not everything is equal. Different trigger mechanism acted upon with equal amounts of force can produce different outcomes. I do not believe that one can train to perfection--this doesn't exist. There are accounts of very skilled shooters having NDs during competition, people who have shot and practiced 100s of times more than I ever will. If they can make a mistake, so can I. Some trigger systems are more forgiving of getting your finger on the trigger too soon, or of not carefully re-holstering. To deny this is to deny the laws of physics. If the snarky poster thinks he can train to shoot equal across all trigger systems, I'd like to see it. There is only one Jerry Miculek and very few Langdons in this world.

EDIT: One more thought. The longer I shoot, the more people I meet that trick themselves into thinking that they can train all the danger out of this sport. We've chosen a dangerous sport/hobby and there are things that can be done outside of training to lower the probability of a mishap. One of these things is having a heavy and long first trigger pull, its called physics!

The thing about a DA first pull preventing a brain fart being really loud, is to make sure that you have the brain fart after you decock.

A DA/SA adds complexity and that makes them more prone to ND IMo.

[HammerStriker]

Good question, what happened? The video is too low quality to tell. One of 3 things happened:

1911 holstered with safety off? DA would not help because he could have just as easily forgotton to decock. Again. You must train to use the decocker fo get that extra level of safety. So yep, more training.

Mechanical Malfunction (including idiot modified Glock)? Would a DA help here? Maybe. It would keep energy from being applied to the firearm when a part breaks. However, any modern firearm should have several “fail-safes” unless dicked with. So even a stock Glock would have prevented it. Again, the action doesn’t matter. Maybe if the shooter had more training, he wouldn’t feel the need to dick with his gun for “muh trigger”.

Stock pistol with something in the holster. Okay, here is where a DA/SA *could* help, *if* he trained with it. But, if he had checked his holster for obstructions, which is an import part of reholstering, which we teach and train, this would have prevented it. So in this scenario either a DA/SA or training would have helped.

So yes. It probably was a training issue.


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It's really hard to tell, but it doesn't see like he has clothing hanging into his holster. Whey do we always assume that the shooter did something wrong, even when it doesn't appear he did? What if the guy sent his pistol to a smith for a trigger job and it was botched? Still a training issue?

[HammerStriker]

The thing about a DA first pull preventing a brain fart being really loud, is to make sure that you have the brain fart after you decock.

A DA/SA adds complexity and that makes them more prone to ND IMo.

Agreed, but how many cases are there actually where shooters have an ND after forgetting to de-cock? I don't know the answer and doubt anyone really does, I'm guessing (hoping) its pretty uncommon.

[spinmove_]

Agreed, but how many cases are there actually where shooters have an ND after forgetting to de-cock? I don't know the answer and doubt anyone really does, I'm guessing (hoping) its pretty uncommon.

The problem in that scenario isn't necessarily that there might be a chance of ND’ing, but the fact that the end user hasn’t ingrained decocking to a subconscious level before making it to the holster.

Hardware can only negate so many issues, but it’ll never work if you don’t train to use it properly.

[Sammy1]

The problem in that scenario isn't necessarily that there might be a chance of ND’ing, but the fact that the end user hasn’t ingrained decocking to a subconscious level before making it to the holster.

Hardware can only negate so many issues, but it’ll never work if you don’t train to use it properly.

I was issued a TDA for many years. I was taught to holster with my thumb on the back of the slide/next to hammer to ensure it was decocked and the slide was in battery. Years later, issued a Glock, I still holster with my thumb on the back of the slide out of habit.

[M2CattleCo]

The problem in that scenario isn't necessarily that there might be a chance of ND’ing, but the fact that the end user hasn’t ingrained decocking to a subconscious level before making it to the holster.

Hardware can only negate so many issues, but it’ll never work if you don’t train to use it properly.

Which makes my point too. If you always do everything properly as trained, you won't ND any trigger.

[0ddl0t]

It's really hard to tell, but it doesn't see like he has clothing hanging into his holster. Whey do we always assume that the shooter did something wrong, even when it doesn't appear he did?

Looks to me like his index finger inadvertently pushed a too soft/flimsy holster into the trigger:

Shirt looks to be well tucked in & out of the way:


Finger indexed on frame:


Is that a loose leather strap at the top of the holster? Some kind of adjustable retention strap?


Finger still looks good:


Index finger appears to be bending -- pushing floppy holster into trigger?


Boom:

[Clusterfrack]

I’m coming up on 100k shot through my CZs since I switched from striker guns. I am very safety conscious, because while lots of reps builds mastery, there is still a greater chance of a mistake. I want mistakes to be rendered harmless by other safety measures.

Decocking has become second nature, but as mentioned above, a thumb on the hammer verifies that decocking has occurred before holstering. Add slow, deliberate holstering, and I think a TDA gun can be safer than most other options.

However, it is more complicated, so there are more chances for an error. Eg. I was interrupted during practice a couple months ago, and caught myself holstering without decocking during the thumb on hammer step.

As I consider what is the best type of gun for my 22 year old daughter to use for defense, it is hard to decide between the simplicity of a Glock with a Gadget, and a TDA with a long trigger pull. If I was confident that she would practice daily or even weekly, I’d go with the TDA.

IMO, TDAs are not beginners guns, and require more practice to run safely and effectively.

[Clusterfrack]

Looks to me like his index finger inadvertently pushed a too soft/flimsy holster into the trigger:

Shirt looks to be well tucked in & out of the way:

Nice analysis of this. I was trying to figure out what happened. The holster and belt look squirrely. We had a ND at a steel match a few years ago when a guy holstered his gun in a floppy, bubba-modified holster. It didn't end as well as this one though. The guy shot himself through the thigh (superficial), calf (superficial), and foot (NOT superficial).

People just don't know what they don't know. At a USPSA match two weeks ago, a new guy showed up with a M&P in a foam Uncle Mike's. After he showed clear, my buddy who was the RO said "Dude. Get a real holster." The guy was very open to suggestions, which was good to see. Let's all go on a mission to rid the world of shitty, dangerous holsters. Or maybe not .

[spinmove_]

I’m coming up on 100k shot through my CZs since I switched from striker guns. I am very safety conscious, because while lots of reps builds mastery, there is still a greater chance of a mistake. I want mistakes to be rendered harmless by other safety measures.

Decocking has become second nature, but as mentioned above, a thumb on the hammer verifies that decocking has occurred before holstering. Add slow, deliberate holstering, and I think a TDA gun can be safer than most other options.

However, it is more complicated, so there are more chances for an error. Eg. I was interrupted during practice a couple months ago, and caught myself holstering without decocking during the thumb on hammer step.

As I consider what is the best type of gun for my 22 year old daughter to use for defense, it is hard to decide between the simplicity of a Glock with a Gadget, and a TDA with a long trigger pull. If I was confident that she would practice daily or even weekly, I’d go with the TDA.

IMO, TDAs are not beginners guns, and require more practice to run safely and effectively.

As much as I’d love to believe a TDA is safer for most people to use, I have to say that a properly maintained Glock with a SCD is probably the best of both worlds. Hard to beat that combo.