I got to finger bang my buddy’s M&P with the Apex Duty Carry trigger. I like it a lot. The manual safety seems to fit me well. Is there an extra heavy trigger trigger return spring available (heavier than the Apex kit) to add a little weight to the take up?
What does it take to add texture to the metal frame guns? I’m guessing the laser engravers could be used for it?
David S.
I like the Duty trigger because it leaves takeup in the trigger. The forward set trigger is almost no takeup which I don't like on a street trigger without a safety.Originally Posted by newyork
I think the Massachusetts trigger spring is still out there and it would accomplish that.
3/15/2016
That’s what I figured. Forward set seemed a bit shady for no safety.
Based on a brief search, it appears that the MA compliant configuration is an heavy TRS and a modified trigger bar and maybe some other bits. It's hard to tell.
Could you take a WAG on what the take-up weight and the trigger weight through the wall would be with a DCAEK and MA compliant TRS? I ASSume it would be a little heavier take up but lighter than 10 lbs at the wall.
Context: While I don't want to reignite the discussion here, I struggle with the "it's the trigger travel, not the weight" argument, at least when it comes to the super light take up on LEM and striker fired gun. These are just theories floating in my stupid brain, but from a safety perspective, my ideal goal is to add a pound or so to the take up, without significantly increasing the trigger wall weight.
David S.
Back to elementary science, isn't "work" defined as "force x distance"?
When it comes to the subjective topic of what makes a safer or better defensive trigger, I agree with the general principle that distance is more useful than weight. But I also agree with you that, subjectively, extremely light travel is worth less, which would agree with the the "force x distance" equation. 3/4" at 6 lbs might be more useful than 1" at 2 lbs, if that makes sense.
Apex green spring. It’s been a few years but I just called them up and bought them on the phone.
Not sure how I missed this thread...
I currently have three of these, this one is my primary shooter. It has the Apex (Friends & Family blem) SDF barrel, Polymer Flat-Faced Forward Set trigger, Dawson FO sights, and I am very happy with it. The predecessor wears the same sights, but is otherwise out of the box. I shot it for about two years and now resides in the lockbox with a TLR-1 and pressure switch. It ran through my weekly ~75rnd practice sessions without bobbling, I only replaced it because I became interested in changing the trigger and adding the barrel and I figured if I was going to invest ~$250 into a $500 gun I might as well start with a fresh one.
For the third one I bought a 5MOA SRO and last week sent the slide to Jagerwerks, that gives me 8-12wks to buy the trigger and barrel, and then I will have twins with and without the RDO. Then I will be able to do some worthy testing of what might really be possible without relying on my lame eyes.
I am very happy with this trigger setup. I have two M&Ps (45 full size, 9 subcompact) with the duty trigger (and previously had 4-5 other ones with it) and they are great as well. I am pretty sure the flat trigger does not eliminate the striker block function, and the take-up is still quite significant, just not the damn near 5/8" of the factory:
Lots of comparison to the 1911 (always...) and before my first 5" I had been shooting a 5" SR1911 9mm weekly and really wanted to check myself against the easy button 1911 by transitioning to a stock pistol. I think the factory 2.0 trigger gets a lot of hate, but I do not think it is a problem. But I was starting to shoot casual club level three-gun matches, and the guys setting them up are all shooting game guns so I wanted some tweaks. Something I really like about the flat trigger kit (I am sure you could do the same with the duty kit) is the tuning matrix they publish, and the combination of springs they provide:
In my case I was seeking to mimic the 1911 experience I have enjoyed for ~45yrs, and want light take up and a crisp break, and went with this combo of the factory lighter trigger spring with the Apex heavier sear spring, and I think I got what I wanted:
I have tried to love the thumb safety four or five times and just never bonded with it. With my hand and my grip it needs to be just a wee bit lower to just fall into place where the 1911 safety does. I even went to a local firearms friendly precision welding shop to try and get one altered, I really wish somebody would make one that thinks it should be where I think it should be.
I really enjoy these pistols and think they are underrated, but that probably makes them a stronger value.
Probably...but all I've ever used is the TRS itself. Todd used it because it added weight to the takeup and speed to the trigger reset, but when used in combination with the Performance Center sear it didn't add a bunch of weight to the actual trigger pull:
https://pistol-training.com/mp-monday-week-eleven/
It's probably going to be pretty close to Todd's description. My WAG with the Apex parts is going to be around that 5-6 pound mark. The weight of the heavier TRS changes the dynamic of the trigger press making it a bit more difficult to feel the "wall" in the trigger. If you are used to a Glock's "take up the slack and press" methodology, this will freak you out. If you run it like a 6 pound DA revolver trigger, though, this will be fine. That "rolling trigger" concept is what Todd used as his method of trigger control and it's my preferred technique as well.Could you take a WAG on what the take-up weight and the trigger weight through the wall would be with a DCAEK and MA compliant TRS? I ASSume it would be a little heavier take up but lighter than 10 lbs at the wall.
I tend to default to "slack-out, press" when I'm shooting because it's a bad habit that got ingrained. You can shoot very accurately with it. What it tends to induce, though, is this pause in the process which also tends to induce a relaxation of grip at the same time. Then people tend to attack the trigger press AND tighten their grip at the same moment, inducing the low-leftism that is a direct result of that. The leftism is almost always the result of hitting the trigger itself and/or a corner of the grip with sudden violent force, and the low-ism is the result of tightening the grip. All of this steers the gun low and left while the ignition chain is in motion and the bullet is still inside the gun.
With a "rolling" break you are essentially just moving the trigger the entire way through the trigger's arc of movement in one steady, smooth motion. The only real difference is the speed at which you move the trigger based on the shot. If you need a precise shot, you move the trigger more slowly...but you are still constantly moving the trigger.
What I find most people do on the trigger regardless of what they think they are doing is varying the weight they apply to the trigger. In other words they add weight until the trigger stops moving or hits a hitch, then they apply additional weight and this process repeats until the shot goes off. This is most easily seen on a revolver because you can watch the movement of the cylinder and see a sort of jerky rotation where the cylinder seems to move by fits and starts. This contrasts with someone who is an experienced revolver shooter that simply moves the trigger in one smooth motion. The cylinder spins smoothly in one motion and the shot breaks. If you watch Jerry Miculek shoot a revolver you're seeing someone just move the trigger to the rear in one quick smooth motion.
If I could graph it out you'd likely see that a shooter like Jerry is applying about 2x the force the trigger requires to be moved fully, but instead of one big spike where it's all happening at once the graph would show a prolonged period of time where he's moving the trigger to the rear as a process, not an event.
That is combined with gripping the gun as hard as he is physically able to do so, so there's no slack in his grip to snatch out as the shot is being fired and the gun is stabilized against the force he's loading on the trigger. Outside of bench rest shooting with sandbags, that methodology is how I've achieved the highest accuracy with a pistol. I want to press with more weight than the trigger needs, but do so by actually deliberately moving the trigger. Anything else usually results in steering the gun somewhere other than the intended point of aim.
The LEM trigger has a very light but long takeup. The "wall" is noticeable, but the trigger press itself takes a bit of movement through the trigger. That part of the trigger press works best when you use the "rolling break" technique, too. With the Apex springs in my carry gun, the gun feels similar to the LEM setup on my P30 pistols.
The Mass trigger spring with a Performance Center sear changes the trigger dynamics to feel more like a light, relatively short DA revolver trigger.
Hopefully that all makes sense.
3/15/2016
This makes a lot of sense and is something I will likely experiment with next year. Thanks for the detailed post.
David S.
Ok, this one’s for the value minded of us out there. After being convinced by this thread to get the Apex barrel and trigger, I went out on a limb to try the Overwatch Precision trigger since there was no info on this product out there. While shopping, however, I noticed they offer an NP3 coated sear that comes with springs to reduce pull weight for right at the $40 price point. So I figured I’d start there.
I’m probably done. As much as I hate the original trigger shoe, it’s shooting well enough for a carry gun that I don’t see myself spending the money on the Apex parts. After swapping the sears and using the 4.25 lb spring, I have a trigger that allows me to see the accuracy I was missing before hand; I’m back to me being the limiting factor. Absolutely the number one change when it comes to shoot ability. An objective difference- old sear disengagement caused a left snap of the dot regardless of my trigger manipulation. OP sear allows me to pull with a motionless dot upon break.
https://overwatchprecision.com/m-p-2...-with-springs/
(Click on review for the video)
Took about 5 minutes to swap out and I put 200 rnds through it with nothing but good things to say about it. Feels exactly like the stock trigger but smoother past the wall and a much lighter let-off. No creep and got rid of the grittiness of the factory sear. I’m very happy with the value - the results are definitely worth the price.
I see this as an intermediate step to a three-tier spectrum that is the M&P game. One end is completely stock. The other end is a barrel/ trigger combo (I don’t really see the benefit in only doing one without the other is worth the cost of either the barrel OR trigger). In between is a sear and spring swap.
Two final thoughts. I’m interested in seeing if the Apex sear offers the same benefit; I would think it would be the same. An addendum to my thoughts concerning only a full-trigger system replacement - I absolutely would not argue with one who states it is worth it to them to replace the trigger shoe as well. I’d pay $80 for a sear/shoe combo, but as the costs approach $200, I’m out. Apex’s polymer kit seems a great deal at not much more than $100 but I don’t want the flat face. And the DCAEK doesn’t reduce the pull weight much.
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