A Different View of Gun Safety.

[Totem Polar]

However, comma, in the larger gun handling world these statements may as well not even exist. Routine violations of the Four Rules are just one trip to your local range away...

...Maybe they worked in Col. Coopers time. Maybe they worked in the 80s and 90s. But it’s clear to me in 2018 those standards are not sufficient. We have all this commercial safety oriented research and data to teach people how to operate deadly machinery all around; why not apply those techniques for guns?

^^^I’ve heard the same argument put forth as reasons for "more gun control," as have most here. Failure to follow laws and rules is not the same thing as the rule or law being poorly written in and of itself. JMO.

[GardoneVT]

^^^I’ve heard the same argument put forth as reasons for "more gun control," as have most here. Failure to follow laws and rules is not the same thing as the rule or law being poorly written in and of itself. JMO.

Col Coopers Rules aren’t flawed in concept. However,it must be acknowledged that not everyone who carries or shoots a gun is a dedicated gunslinger. His writings basically wrote off anyone who didn’t grasp the Four Rules as a duffer unworthy of consideration. That might be what his views were ; but today we don’t have the collective luxury of doing that.

One; in his time there was a proud tradition of marksmanship outside of the uniformed services. Today politically minded military and LE managers are doing their damnedest to keep people from using their guns,including training cutbacks. I remember a sad comment from DB in a recent podcast on the matter; many police agencies now view gun guys as outliers.

Combine that environment with the need for more gun owners to vote against future gun control initiatives, and we have the dilemma. We can’t expect every American to dedicate themselves to being expert gunslingers; but that’s exactly what the Four Rules entail. This is not a tenable state of affairs. We need a safety culture (Rules,different training curriculum,etc) that can be applied to people uninterested in dedicated study of the pistol and rifle. Four Rules might be good enough for a culture of marksmen (USA,circa 1951) or a cadre of gun geeks.Its not enough for regular people buying Sig Legions to shoot semiannually for fun.

[Totem Polar]

Fair enough. Different tool for different mission, I suppose.

[SoCalDep]

Its not enough for regular people buying Sig Legions to shoot semiannually for fun.

Bravo... Bravo... Not that Sigs are bad, but at my department Sigs seem to be the cool gun for people who think the gun will make them good.

As for the four rules. Four are better than none, and for that, I must give respect to Mr. Cooper for their development. That said, I don't think they were written on tablets and blessed by God, and they certainly aren't perfect, so I feel that I have an obligation to not condone that which isn't true.

My agency follows the four rules pretty closely, and I can't stand #1. I am much more comfortable with "Assume all firearms are loaded" and I steal the Pat MacNamara (which is very close to the Mike Pannone) requirement that you are responsible to know the condition of any firearm in your control at all times.

I further agree that there is an over-dependence on "rules" at the expense of general common sense and safety. There are no rules for handling ammonia or bleach, but many people (and lots of cops) treat an open container of either of those with more care than a firearm... rules be damned. Then you get those that say "I did what you said and a bad thing still happened", when that bad thing was born of such pure and unmitigated stupidity that one with experience and expertise could hardly predict it... yet there it is and the offender can cite that "you never told me this". There comes a point where the Mike Pannone "Don't do stupid shit with guns" rule is absolutely perfect. I just have to figure out how to phrase it so my department won't fire me.

[Robinson]

Col Coopers Rules aren’t flawed in concept. However,it must be acknowledged that not everyone who carries or shoots a gun is a dedicated gunslinger. His writings basically wrote off anyone who didn’t grasp the Four Rules as a duffer unworthy of consideration. That might be what his views were ; but today we don’t have the collective luxury of doing that.

...in his time there was a proud tradition of marksmanship outside of the uniformed services. Four Rules might be good enough for a culture of marksmen...

You make some valid points, but I can't help thinking you are advocating dumbing down the rules of gun safety for the sake of people who just think guns are cool or that guns are magic items that ward off crime. But the cultural shift you mentioned is real, so along with discussing how to best instill safe gun handling in casual shooters perhaps we should also have a discussion about how to foster that "culture of marksmen" you talked about. It could be said that the 2nd Amendment itself was born out of a culture of marksmen. "A nation of riflemen madam, if you can keep it".

All that said, I still think the four rules -- including rule #1 as Cooper meant it -- are good common sense safety rules. If they were always followed, gun accidents would be all but nonexistent. The thought of a person who has the blank stare of incomprehension on their face after having the four rules explained to them is actually somewhat unnerving.

[Darth_Uno]

Wow, 75 posts debating whether guns really are loaded all the time or not.

People have to be in on the metaphor before they appreciate its meaning. Coopers rules came from a gun guy to other gun guys. They made sense in that context. To a true newbie it seems really nonsensical until they “get” it. That said, some people do like to be belligerent about it even after they understand and then that’s just them being obtuse.

Right. Any time "it goes without saying", it really doesn't. It probably does need to be said to somebody. I mean, otherwise you'd never dry fire.

[GardoneVT]

You make some valid points, but I can't help thinking you are advocating dumbing down the rules of gun safety for the sake of people who just think guns are cool or that guns are magic items that ward off crime. But the cultural shift you mentioned is real, so along with discussing how to best instill safe gun handling in casual shooters perhaps we should also have a discussion about how to foster that "culture of marksmen" you talked about. It could be said that the 2nd Amendment itself was born out of a culture of marksmen. "A nation of riflemen madam, if you can keep it".

All that said, I still think the four rules -- including rule #1 as Cooper meant it -- are good common sense safety rules. If they were always followed, gun accidents would be all but nonexistent. The thought of a person who has the blank stare of incomprehension on their face after having the four rules explained to them is actually somewhat unnerving.

One of the things many businesses get right (out of necessity,admittedly) is teaching otherwise uninterested employees to use dangerous machinery safely. A gun can cause serious injury or death,but so can lathes and industrial presses. It’s interesting how those orgs teach equipment use by first starting with a long chapter on safety and the consequences. Imagine the number of injuries we’d see in a car plant if they taught production safety the same way most gun classes do ( heres a set of four rules about the Big Dangerous Robot ,now go to work!).

I use that as an example; but my goal here is to derive a safety standard that every gun owner -especially those unintested in detailed weaponcraft- can pick up and adopt for safe handling.

[Robinson]

I use that as an example; but my goal here is to derive a safety standard that every gun owner -especially those unintested in detailed weaponcraft- can pick up and adopt for safe handling.

Yep, I get that and appreciate it. I guess my bias is toward convincing those same people to become interested in detailed weaponcraft. Probably a quite unrealistic goal, right?

I still like the four rules though.

[BehindBlueI's]

^^^I’ve heard the same argument put forth as reasons for "more gun control," as have most here. Failure to follow laws and rules is not the same thing as the rule or law being poorly written in and of itself. JMO.

Bright line for both laws and rules, at some point the question "is this working" needs to be asked. The perfect law with zero community buy in is useless. The perfect rule that's misunderstood by a large segment of the population it applies to is not working. I kept stats for ADs causing injury (and preemptively I don't care about semantics of ND vs AD) or death. Telling people to pretend it's loaded isn't working when they think it isn't, then they disregard the three rules that matter. Shit happens. Someone has a new hole(s). Most memorably, by a guy who had completed a gun safety course a few hours before he got a new hole in body. Eliminate the notion loaded/unloaded status matters. Treat a gun like a gun (in the context of obeying the other 3).

[Bergeron]

What I see among people without a degree of proficiency in their safe handling is that they’ll treat the gun differently based on their view of its status, and that seems to be the problem that we could do a better job getting in front of.

I’ve only heard rarely that “There’s only one way to handle guns safely.”

That safe way is to:

#1 Always check the magazine and chamber of any gun you touch as the first thing that you do when you touch it.

#2 Always keep your index finger high and away from the trigger until th gun is pointed at the target.

#3 Always continuously imagine the path of a potential fired round, and prevent the muzzle from covering another person.

#4 Always be aware of your target and what could be behind it.

I think after going there, it’s worth talking about *how* we do these things. I think that’s where a lot of lose occurs and where a lot potential resides.

#1- We need to explain that this is a matter of proper etiquette, and that it’s important for the new shooter to insist on this behavior. New shooters must feel comfortable insisting on checking guns.

#2- We open and close our whole hands thousands of times per day. The tendency of the index finger to rest on the trigger when gripping the gun therefore already exists, but we must train ourselves out of this behavior before safely handling guns. Beyond even blue guns or laser guns, household cleaners and drills can be used to introduce the habit of a straight and high index finger.

#3- It’s easy to wave a pistol around, and we have to consciously, continuously project an extension of the muzzle in our mind. When we’re touching guns, even more than knowing where not to point them, we have to, in the moment, have continuous muzzle awareness and control. I’m sticking a Lasergrip on a pistol for this main purpose.

#4- Here’s where we talk about mistaken identity shootings, and bullets going through various things like sheetrock, and skipping off of water to travel large distances down range.

Firearms safety is a mindful, present, and active process; we should sell it as such.