Police Fitness Test Discriminated Against Women (CO)

[ReverendMeat]

Army has been going through this recently. The Infantry school at FT Benning (aka Maneuver Center of Excellence with Armor and Cav now) put a lot of effort into studying a PT test that would measure capabilities for an Infantry soldier of any age or gender versus the classic 3 event APFT. Example - dropping a 120 mortar round down the tube, pulling a dummy simulating wounded soldier out of a BFV turret, removing the barrel from a BFV 25mm, and so on. Not sure where this going now........

Marines started doing similar a few years back with the Combat Fitness Test. It incorporates a short run in boots 'n utes, lifting ammo cans, throwing dummy grenades, and fireman-carrying a buddy through a small obstacle course. It's a pain in the ass to do on top of a regular PFT but at least it makes sense. Army of course there's still the standard PFT and job-specific standards like you mentioned. For my current MOS the requirement is to get a 4 man team in full battle rattle and move a howitzer muzzle brake a short distance. Simple pass/fail, I like it and it makes more sense than silly bullshit like situps.

[Greg]

US Male 90th percentile weight / female 95th percentile weight is right around 250 lbs. I'd love to see a standard like "drag a 250lb sandbag 50 yards for time". 3MPH = about 90 yards a minute IIRC; it would be interesting to see what a 2 minute cutoff would do. Whether you spin it as saving a colleague or a proxy to being able to deal with a member of the public would be whatever fits best PC-wise.

ETA: F me, *average* female weight in the US is now 168 lbs at 5'4".

Further ETA: Jeez, even 75th percentile female weight is over 190. Just make it 190 lbs to keep away arguments of judging men as more important.

Wow! When I was a kid in the 1970s I read a book that said the average American Male was 5'9" and 165 pounds.

Logging off PF to buy stock in Diabetes Drug makers....

[luckyman]

Wow! When I was a kid in the 1970s I read a book that said the average American Male was 5'9" and 165 pounds.

Logging off PF to buy stock in Diabetes Drug makers....

My daughter is off to Jackson MS next week week for a Prosthetist residency. MS being the state with the highest incidence of diabetes and therefore having the greatest per-capita amputations, or something close to that. Prosthetics is a booming "industry".
One of her big goals this year is to not get fat.

[peterb]

Firefighting went through this years ago when women complained that things like bench presses were being used as fitness tests for employment. One result was the CPAT:

The Candidate Physical Ability Test (CPAT):
The CPAT is a timed course consisting of eight events that simulate actual actions firefighters are expected to perform. The events must be performed safely and correctly within set guidelines. The CPAT is a pass/fail test, and the entire course must be completed within 10 minutes and 20 seconds or the test is failed.

During the test, the candidate will progress through the course of events wearing a 50 lb. vest, which is meant to simulate a firefighters self-contained breathing apparatus (SCBA), turnouts and gear. The eight events consist of:

Stair Climb (an additional 25 lbs (2 -12.5 lb weights) are added to the candidates shoulders for this event to simulate carrying hose packs up the stairs of a high-rise building.
Hose Drag
Equipment Carry
Ladder Raise and Extension
Forcible Entry
Search
Rescue
Ceiling Breech and Pull


It's hard to argue that it's not relevant to the work requirements.

[Coyotesfan97]

The sticky wicket for mandatory physical fitness tests in LE is they require giving Officers on duty work out time. Not a big deal for firefighters working a 24 hour shift and fitting workouts in between Netflix and Xbox

It's a big deal for us and it's what has stopped fitness tests in the past. Staffing levels are bad enough right now. I guess they could do what they do for K9. We work 9 hour shifts and get an hour for dog care. Then it'd be a matter of adjusting shift changes.

[Peally]

Moral of the story is be a firefighter. Netflix and Xbox.

[Hambo]

Apply a slightly lower standard for investigators and a slightly higher standard for special teams. Your standards depend on your position, not your age or gender.

I've got some real world fitness test ideas:

Real world patrol test: In full patrol uniform and gear, you have to fight someone who outweighs you by 50 pounds for five minutes.

Real world SWAT test: lean on an armored vehicle while holding an M4 on target.

Real world investigator test: while eating a cheeseburger in a restaurant, try to remember if you put bullets in your gun.

Seriously, if a patrol officer can't run a suspect down, the dogs or helo can. The worst case for patrol is the need to survive until help arrives (better yet would be to kick ass before help arrives). Except for the fact that we didn't wrestle people like patrol, the needs in SWAT are basically the same: aerobic and carrying heavy shit/dragging heavy people. Detectives, maybe they should just have a typing test.

[Rex G]

Our PAT test is "mandated," but only specified job descriptions must pass, such as SWAT and cadet training, are required to actually pass the PAT; everyone else must only "attempt" the test. I am prohibited from discussing details of PD policy, but let's just say that merely signing-up is the most difficult part of an acceptable "attempt." I was willing to diligently perform each task, except for going full-speed on the knee-twisting slalom portion of the timed obstacle course, and of course, that was the first part of the test, so I was instantly DQ'ed, thanked, and not offered an opportunity to perform the other tasks. That was the last time I suited-up for the test.

I have forgotten what our PAT test requires, but in addition to the above-mentioned timed obstacle course, I seem to remember sit-ups, a timed 1.5-mile run, a vertical jump to a specified height, and a choice of bench-pressing a specified percentage of our body weight, or opting for a specified number of push-ups.

Our "attempt" is scheduled during our birth month, as a means of keeping the scheduling spaced relatively evenly throughout the year.

Since that time, a financial reward has been offered, for passing the PAT, to officers hired after a specified date, and additional leave hours for newer-hires who pass the test.

An alternative obstacle course was contemplated, which did away with the knee-twisting slalom, and instead incorporated carrying a sandbag, meant to simulate the weight of a child, up and down stairs, and through at least one window. I wondered of this was borrowed from the firefighter's PAT. I participated in a trial run of this test, and liked it, but it was not adopted.

A few years ago, as part of mandated in-service training, all first-responder officers performed a practical exercise, in uniform, that included securing the patrol vehicle, running a practically-designed obstable course, among buildings, and then using a training baton to strike red-man-padded role-players for a specified amount of time. There was no timing involved, except for engaging the padded role-players for a specified time. I liked this.

It will be interesting to see what our new chief decides, for the next training cycle, which starts in September.

Regarding worker's comp issues with a PAT test: I am not a lawyer, but yes, anything performed as part of one's employment is covered by worker's comp, and this includes blown-out knees from that silly slalom-around-the-f-ing-cones.

[Shotgun]

Firefighting went through this years ago when women complained that things like bench presses were being used as fitness tests for employment. One result was the CPAT:

The Candidate Physical Ability Test (CPAT):
The CPAT is a timed course consisting of eight events that simulate actual actions firefighters are expected to perform. The events must be performed safely and correctly within set guidelines. The CPAT is a pass/fail test, and the entire course must be completed within 10 minutes and 20 seconds or the test is failed.

During the test, the candidate will progress through the course of events wearing a 50 lb. vest, which is meant to simulate a firefighters self-contained breathing apparatus (SCBA), turnouts and gear. The eight events consist of:

Stair Climb (an additional 25 lbs (2 -12.5 lb weights) are added to the candidates shoulders for this event to simulate carrying hose packs up the stairs of a high-rise building.
Hose Drag
Equipment Carry
Ladder Raise and Extension
Forcible Entry
Search
Rescue
Ceiling Breech and Pull


It's hard to argue that it's not relevant to the work requirements.

How many women pass this test?

[peterb]

How many women pass this test?

A quick search found an article from 2002 stating that the pass rate for one department was 90% for male applicants and 50% for female applicants.