Army officer sues Virginia police over violent traffic stop

[trailrunner]

Syre. There is a history between soldiers and nearby police harassing them. For minorities it was much worse.

You're really stretching. Do you know if Windsor VA is close to where this guy was stationed? Does Windsor have this history?

[Wake27]

Plenty of other examples, including a sailor that was in a shots-fired incident today with LE in Hawaii, the Navy Corpsman that was killed by police— and that’s just in the last few days.

I think this was in response to me? If so, the incident in hawaii wasn’t a OIS from the article I skimmed. As for the other two, I should’ve clarified - how many police officers have shot military personnel in uniform that weren’t possibly involved in recent shootings?

It was a legit question, but somewhat pointed as I was guessing it’s a pretty low number. The cops weren’t completely in the right in my opinion, as I don’t think the response to him saying he was scared was at all appropriate nor productive, but the LT didn’t approach this as a professional with bearing and confidence of no wrongdoing, which the uniform he was wearing could have instilled on both sides. It definitely could’ve been a point of deescalation as the military and LE typically has a good relationship.


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[Wake27]

1960ish.

Before Vietnam? So because there were problems 60-80 years ago, southern cops are probably still racist against “colored” members of the military?

I have no doubt that there are cops that fall into that category but you’re painting with a dangerously broad brush of ignorance. By defaulting to that answer, you are part of the problem because the perception you’re giving is a belief that people can’t change for the better and characterizing them in that sense is just going to make them mad, and rightfully so.


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[VT1032]

One of the officers has been terminated.

8News: Officer terminated following traffic stop involving U.S. Army Lieutenant.
https://www.wric.com/news/virginia-n...my-lieutenant/

[Borderland]

I’m sure you can google VA law as well as I can.

I doubt any state would put a “maximum distance” as part of their law (don’t know that for sure, but it’s true for my state). It’s based on reasonableness and totality of the circumstances.

Maybe it’s reasonable to drive a mile after being blue lighted. Maybe it’s not.

I googled WA law. In WA the law states that one should stop immediately. Of course there are circumstances where that may be dangerous. There are lots of roads that have no shoulders here so one would have to block a lane of traffic. That's going to create a problem for everyone including the LEO.

Doesn't look like any laws were broken because no arrests were made. Well, maybe a few by the police. Just a lot of drama and a payday for the Lt. and his attorney.

[Wake27]

This story has been making a lot of the local news sites over the weekend. The reports I read were pretty slanted, but they were relying on quotes from the guy's attorney, and he is trying to build a case through the press.

Here's a longer version of the interaction. I also saw a video from the POV of the first officer while he was driving behind the guy, before he pulled into the gas station, but can't seem to find that now. It's not in this version.

I’m curious about his goatee while in uniform. Between that and his body language, he’s definitely giving the appearance of an attitude problem and only doing what he wants.

The fat old cop is coming off as either aggressive or scared enough to not be collected and calculating. Maybe that’s because he’s racist against black people or maybe that’s because he’s nervous after all of the hate police have been getting for the past few years. Either way, both of them are escalating the situation.

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[GyroF-16]

He didn’t want to be a good guy, he wanted to be a victim. But disobeying lawful orders during a traffic stop doesn’t make you a victim, it makes you an asshole.

No, the “bullshit” was totally referencing your post. You could write for CNN with that kind of spin.

Wow - I’m really disappointed by your reaction to my post.
I’ve always valued your inputs here (and almost always agreed with them), and did not expect that.

I’m honestly just trying to give perspective on how this looks from a conservative, combat veteran, pro-cop, grown-up’s perspective in middle America.
And - my expectations for how I’d have been treated as an active duty officer in uniform during a traffic stop (back when I was active duty).
Maybe the LT put on a good act, but he sure looked to me like he was scared and trying not to do something that might get him shot. And he seemed to have no idea why guns were pointed at him. I found him relatable, and I’m not one to look for a payday, or to be a victim.

I see you clearly have a different read. I’ll respect it, but I can’t relate to it.

[paherne]

It's not worth it to comment on this topic.

[TGS]

Wow - I’m really disappointed by your reaction to my post.
I’ve always valued your inputs here (and almost always agreed with them), and did not expect that.

I'll be honest that I felt a similar reaction.

Playing barracks lawyer on the side of the road is not "reasonable", in reference to you defending him "asking the police reasonable questions". You don't have a right to conduct court on the side of the road; you are legally obliged to obey the officer's commands, and no, they don't owe you an explanation to your satisfaction before you have to do anything.

It especially struck me when your conclusion was that this is from racism. As @TC215 said, this is a natural progression from a suspected felony subject failing to obey commands.

Moreover, for you to insinuate that they did this because he's black, can you show me how if I were one of those officers I would be able to tell the driver was black prior to seeing his hands or face out the window when stopped? I don't know about you, but I definitely can't tell the color of the driver through that tint at night time.

The actions of the officers were instigated by his behavior, and started prior to any reasonable chance they would have had to see that he's a black man.
____________________

Much has been made about whether this is a felony stop or what felony was committed. Here's the deal: the cop tried to initiate the stop for failure to display a tag, which is a violation and the cop is absolutely within his reason to do so. The driver failed to stop. In Virginia, failing to stop for the police is a misdemeanor unless you're driving recklessly ("running" from the police), at which point it becomes a felony. From what accounts exists, it sounds like he would've fallen under the misdemeanor. His non-violent obstruction after the car was stopped would be a misdemeanor as well.

However, that doesn't mean the officers couldn't execute a felony stop based off a totality of circumstances. There's no public release of the officers' report so we can't know for sure, but it's entirely possible the initiating officer was making his decision to conduct a felony stop because he has reasonable suspicion that a felony crime was afoot...i.e. grand larceny (how auto theft is charged in Virginia). @TC215 offered a very well reasoned approach, and maybe this cop didn't put 2 and 2 together to ratchet down from a felony stop upon seeing the driver pull into a gas station because he's new and inexperienced, and maybe hasn't personally seen a difference between people pulling into gas stations and their level of criminality. What's interesting here, however, is that the younger cop while possibly inexperienced (we don't know, he might have been a cop for 8 years and just one of those people that looks young forever), he wasn't the one that people are really honing in on as losing control. The older cop is the one displaying more aggressiveness and agitation, whereas the younger cop actually appears to be quite composed. Something to think about.

I agree with the overall assessment that the older officer here is lacking in professionalism, but I don't necessarily see him being "out of control", as physical strikes and OC spray are well within reason for a subject of any race who is resisting. The older officer "copsplaining" shit at the end was cringeworthy, as was his comments during the use of intermediate force adjuncts which will likely sink him, but doesn't necessarily serve as evidence that his and the other officers' actions were motivated by racism. As @Trooper224 noted, "a perfect storm when assholes get together". Although Trooper224 and I have never met I've genuinely appreciated his discussion in the past on stone-cold professionalism when conducting detentions and some of his commentary in the past had made me reflect on some of my own actions when dealing with non-compliance during my first year of law enforcement.

In the end, I think the older officers commentary and their lack of arresting the douchebag is what will sink them. It looks like the cops are admitting guilt of being off the reservation by not arresting him, when they would've been perfectly well within reason to arrest him for obstruction even when they had completed their investigation and found the reasonable suspicion for grand larceny to not rise to the level of probable cause. In fact, I'd say that if they had done so, there'd be much less hubub about this since in the end the LT was irrefutably out of line and the one breaking multiple laws.

[wvincent]

I have a feeling that Lt's CoC is probably just thrilled with all this attention.
His Company Commanders ass is probably hanging in shreds, and that shit will roll down hill.
Ain't often you see an officer give "Terminal Lance" a run for his money.