Travis Haley - .7 second draw to headshot at 10 yds

[GJM]

Being you drug me into this cluster.....as part of the forum I generally ignore. First....dang that was fast...I likely cannot do it that fast, so, impressive work by Haley. I am always impressed with folks who shoot really well and really fast. Just like lots of things in life watching people do well.

What is funny about GJM bringing me up in this context

I am just blowing air up your skirt hoping you sell me that HK45C LEM with the GGI trigger on the cheap now that you are so interested in bespoke revolvers.

[JHC]

I found on the current DoW re 3 yard speed from ready that hard register cost me .2 sec vs inside the trigger guard to a lower A zone.
.84 to the head from register sounds very quick.

[voodoo_man]

*snip* Why are training scars potentially formed by competitive shooting an insurmountable problem, but those potentially formed by defensive training and dry fire are not?

I responded to this question above:

As I have stated ad nauseam, "training scars" which are formed in gaming have to countered with correct repetition to counter the learned responses. So the guy who runs a stage and speed unloads, shows clear, clicks the trigger pointlessly and speed reholsters is going to do that in a real life deadly force situation. Because that's all he knows and that's all he will do. There are numerous of examples like this, any one of which may potentially get a person killed.

To expound on this a little more here are the insurmountable problems associated with gaming as I have seen/in my opinion:

Unrealistic gear selection, which leads to bad reps with gear that will never be carried in real life - gamer rigs

Light loads or "powder puff" loads which provide an unrealistic recoil response which is much lighter than any modern defensive ammunition - gaming hand load vs 147gr +P 9mm.

Walking a stage in an effort maximize points by planning course of fire - this does not exist in real life sets up a false confidence for the shooter

Specific areas which shooting has to occur from, a box you have to stand inside of, a specific area you have to use, a specific barricade, etc - no such limits in real life

Round limits per magazine - there is no such thing in reality

Combat reloads or "forced reloads" - Of all the instructors I've taken classes with, and all the MIL/LEO's I've trained with, I may have heard of one 3rd party story about someone having to perform a reload quickly in order to survive a deadly force confrontation. This is simple something that a lot of time is wasted on and a lot people burn bad reps in this context. People will devote a lot of time to this instead of something else, with a rig they will never carry outside the game and developed a skill they may never need. The only time this becomes a real plus is when you compete as you carry, which most won't because you don't win and no one is going to back pocket reload when others are doing so from a gamer rig, because winning the game is the objective not burning good reps.

Shoot everyone stages - the likelihood of anyone of us showing up to a situation where every single person there needs to be shot/killed is extremely low it's nearly zero. But yet every single game makes the shooter burn the rep of shooting every single target. Sure there are a few "no shoots" thrown into the mix, but that is still not realistic. Hostage headshot at 25 yards? Even if they are standing still the average shooter won't take that shot, but in a game they will this is burning a bad reps of multiple things.

Zero considerations for background of targets because of preplanning - none of this exists in real life and over penetration as well as back drop as very real issues during a shooting. To disregard them is to dismiss them entirely, this means, again the average shooter will believe this is how real life will be because they have never once considered it while pulling the trigger.

Two or three shots to an A-zone / shoot until the metal drops means you "killed" the target - this is not how life works. Show me a stage where the metal target pops back up repeatedly because will do that after being shot and falling. Show me the target with an A-zone being the high thoracic cavity and a C-zone the middle area where the standard A-zone is, not regulation is it? Life is not regulation.

Throwing of shotguns/rifles at the end of that particular stage sometimes onto tables sometimes into buckets - It's empty so we just throw the gun?

Slings? None-gaming mags/tubes for rifle/pistol/ No one is going to carry around a rifle with this type of mag attached to it:



or this tube attached to their shotgun:



or whatever this is:



Running unrealistic long guns like this creates an unrealistic consideration for its ability it also does not allow for retention of the rifle. Show me a stage where you shoot a few rounds through a rifle then have to keep it on your person for an entire pistol stage? There may be one or two, but most that I've seen video's of? Throw them into a bucket.

Muzzle brakes - not applicable for real life and will give away your position instantly in low/no light.

Gun specifically designed to give the shooter as much of a competitive edge as possible - super light triggers, hi-vis fiberoptic sights (non-night sights), unrealistic open holsters.

Gaming rigs - LEO's wear duty rigs with less stuff on it sometimes and no one walks around like this.



Complete lack of target discrimination of any kind with any platform. Is there a stage where the furthest targets require very specific PID and shooting them automatically DQ's the shooter, the caveat is that the shooters aren't told about it and the targets are PID'd through an obscure method? Probably not, but that's reality - this is teaching people to shoot everyone without any consideration for ID, this is very bad.

Use of buzzers/timers - do not exist in real life, building an unconscious response. This doesn't mean the average gamer will default to shooting people on a buzzer, but there will be bad reps burned because that is the only stimulus presented to start the stage. Why not start with a gun shot at random? Or some mechanical presentation of a threat? Probably because you can't quickly write down a time from that and do some score keeping, both of which don't exist in real life.

The "always default to gun/shooting" mentality - which will get you in legal issues that you may not be able to overcome - see George Zimmerman

Orientation of firearm decided by range rules, muzzle down type "no muzzle over berm" rules - do not exist in real life shootings.

Complete lack of tactical awareness - putting guns and arms through windows, past door ways, or "cover" of some kind. - There are a lot of bad reps but this is really bad.

Zero pieing of corners or proper clearing of any kind - there is no penalty for doing it wrong, there is a penalty for doing it right. This is unacceptable and a seriously bad rep. I don't remember the name of the video, I think vickers was in it and some Asian guy showing the difference between game clearing and real life clearing. If you mute it and watch it for what they do, not say you will quickly see the competitive shooter doing things that is completely unrealistic and will most definitely get someone killed if they ever did it that way in real life - which by the way no one does or ever trains to.

Speed unload, speed reholstering - every shooter does this on every single stage. That is burning a lot of bad reps.

To contrast here are some things which I believe can be beneficial:

Random start positions - as in stances or orientation of the shooter to the target.

Tac reloads, reloading when the shooter has time and opportunity to have a fresh mag for new threats - this burdened, however, by pre-planning of the stages.

Repetitive manipulation of a firearm system in a context the shooter may not have the opportunity to do otherwise.

Repetitive accuracy standards (for points) which require the shooter to be accurate and precise in their application of a firearm and the skill sets which develop to facilitate that end.

Improved firearm awareness - condition, status, etc

Recording of shooting to go over mistakes and try to learn.

Classifiers - I like this because its just a pure skill based setup in some instances, there are a few which I do not like because they violate basic common sense - this one for example there is a no shoot but the rules clearly say you can engage the first target or the third target? That means if you engage the first target you are potentially shooting the no shoot? How about we don't shoot no shoots in any capacity even if a shoot target is in front of them? Because in real life that's not going to happen and training for this is setting yourself up for failure. Otherwise there are a lot of good qualifiers that incorporate movement and accuracy.

Other things to consider:

There are lots of good things that have come from gaming into the LE/MIL/CCW world. Extended magazines have been worked out well, like the TTI and ETS 22rnd magazines. The proliferation of variable magnified optics, which has become a standard. "Match" grade barrels.

The is, however, a complete breakdown in the mindset developed that is required to overcome a deadly force confrontation, most of which has very little to do with shooting.




**The above items/lists are not inclusive and I will add to them as I have time**

[Mr_White]

Tom, our timing sucks. I just responded to VDM in the original thread where we started discussing this in the first place: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....alse-dichotomy

He can respond to me there if he wants, like he should have in the first place.

I didn't like the split-off thread where no one else was allowed to talk, but I totally appreciate that you were trying to do something positive, so it's all good. It just added another knot to the continuity of the discussion, so I went back to the beginning.

[Le Français]

Specific areas which shooting has to occur from, a box you have to stand inside of, a specific area you have to use, a specific barricade, etc - no such limits in real life

Is this not also the case in most "tactical" classes, where the shooter shoots from a pre-designated place?

How do you train in a setting where there is no artificial limit on where you can shoot from?

[Luke]

How on earth do you do train without making "scars"? When you want to hit the range and brush up on your skills do you go chase people and shoot them?


You've also shown a video of you shooting a "hostage" drill with a paper target, with a timer.. Freaking gamer

[voodoo_man]

This is going to be difficult with two or three threads talking about the same thing and random people posting things. Easier in a one on one setting.

[Mr_White]

This is going to be difficult with two or three threads talking about the same thing and random people posting things. Easier in a one on one setting.

You don't need a safe space, and continuity of discussion is why I responded to you here, where the original discussion took place: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....chotomy/page13

[taadski]

This is going to be difficult with two or three threads talking about the same thing and random people posting things. Easier in a one on one setting.

Life on the forums is hard...

Com'mon dude, with all your RBT experience, certainly you can keep it together enough to respond in kind to a couple threads on a silly little internet forum. You can think of it as situational awareness training.

[voodoo_man]

Lol safe space, seriously?

The greater issue is there are two threads now and there undoubtedly be people posting so sifting through other people's posts and not ignoring people is difficult when there is a greater conversation to be had. There already several posts here that were directed towards me that I won't respond to. Not because I dont want to but since I anticipate a longer discussion on the subject I'm going to type out ten of the same posts.

Hence why having a one on one discussion is a lot better.