Sobering article from a Good Samaritian

[Skroob]

The best answer I can give only works for me.

First and foremost my duty is not that of the men and women who serve with a badge. No matter what my level of training there is no law that says I must step into this situation. I also have no protection under said laws. It matters not how much I think I am in the right. How many shootings have we seen where the police shoot a perp in a domestic violence call and the victim starts screaming that they didn't have to shoot them? Look at the scrutiny even the police face in a shooting incident. Why would I fair any better?

Also I have to contend with the civil ramifications of taking a life in the defense of myself or someone else. In my state being cleared of criminal charges will not save you from the family of the deceased. I will not put myself nor my family through that for the sake of another whom I more than likely know nothing about.
If I was in direct threat then this risk is worth taking. Just because I saved a life doesn't mean I won't lose everything. Is the intended victim obligated to help offset my costs of saving their life? No. Does the victim even have to say thank you for Possibly saving their life? Nope. So basically getting involved in a domestic violence situation just means that I may possibly be trading the victims life for my own. But at least I will be a man right? I hear pride tastes delicious....

[Cypher]

The thing that really concerns me is that even after this the author still seems to think he has some kind of "duty to respond".

[Hambo]

Jumping into a shit show is a world apart from say, using the Heimlich Maneuver to help a choking victim.

[Nephrology]

Jumping into a shit show is a world apart from say, using the Heimlich Maneuver to help a choking victim.

Definitely.

Personally I would probably have pulled over and kept the scene in eyesight while on the line with 911 until LE arrived. The domestic situations I have seen from a very peripheral point of view seem way too complicated for me to want to throw myself into that mix unknowingly. I also would be very concerned about he possibility of being shot by responding LEOs, simply because the translation between what dispatch gets told - what they tell 1st responders - what is actually happening is like going from English -> Ancient Greek -> Mandarin Chinese.

Rendering medical assistance to someone is way less ambiguous and less likely to be viewed negatively by, well, anybody.

[Luke]

If he believed the victim was in fear of her life and deadly force was justified, how do you think the story would end if he shot him instead of holding him at gun point?

[walker2713]

If he believed the victim was in fear of her life and deadly force was justified, how do you think the story would end if he shot him instead of holding him at gun point?

Manslaughter charges, maybe worse.....

[voodoo_man]

I've chimed in on these types of situations a few times and I wrote an article about this concept (not this exact situation though).

Some of us actually talked about this at the Hyatt after the TLG shoot the other night, I will retype what I told them.

Do you reasonably believe that you or a person you see is about to suffer serious bodily injury or death if you do not immediately intervene in that specific situation?

If you believe (and can articulate this properly) that a person is about to die and you take immediate action your actions may be justified if they are inline with current standards for your particular area. This is extremely subjective due to each one of us has different backgrounds, concepts of what "reasonable" is and levels of training.

If you happen upon such a scene as did the hero in the OP's story, you may choose to draw down on such a person, who is unarmed and while he may be beating someone with his fists, that is not a per se preemption for presentation of violence, especially not if you are with your family (like the hero was).

Domestic situations should not normally facilitate your interference, or any other action than to simply call the police and be a good witness for 911 and the responding officers. Mutual fights are also in this as you do not know the relationship between the two parties and getting involved may make you the target, neither of which are something you should be entering into without carefully considering the repercussions of those actions.

When a person falls to the ground and one or more persons start to kick or stomp a person, boot to face, on the ground then it is perfectly reasonable to believe that person may sustain serious bodily injury and/or death in the very near, immediate future, and taking action is absolutely warranted.

Beyond that, if you see someone who is about to use or is using deadly force (something very basic and simple to see, like a person with a bat, gun or knife) and that person has either made contact with another person or is about to make contact with another person you not only should get involved but you should have zero hesitation on this front.

You have a duty to your community, and while that is not something most people believe as most carry for "me and mine" the fact of these situations is that if you simply do nothing and that person dies, you have come dangerously close to giving your honor away, if not given it away freely. This touches on the concept of Dying Well, and there is no greater honor than to act in the defense of your community. If you do not do that, you should not expect anyone else to ever do it for anyone under any circumstance.

[RevolverRob]

Not sure he went looking for trouble, but he certainly did stumble across it.

It's incredibly horrific commentary on our upside down, wrong is right society that a decent person had to choose between living with a guilty conscience or living in a legal mess cause of stupidity.

It's a commentary on reality. Wrong or right has little to do with it. Humans are fickle beasts.

<Snip>
None of the people I risked my ass for over the years have shown up at my door, offering to help. Most of them, if they were aware of me, wouldn't even think to.

If I get killed, seriously injured, or imprisoned "rescuing" a third party, it's extremely unlikely that that third party, or anybody else is going to pay my bills, take care of my acreage, or give my wife a break when she has had it with our toddler.

Or like the author of the article, "At the time of the incident when I decided to intervene, I believed sincerely, with 100% of my being, that this guy was intent on killing the lady. My wife concurred. But in hindsight, after everything we have gone through — the stress, the loss, the emotional burden, the victim who turned on us, the lost hours, lost wages, the interrogations, and the exposure — I am today left feeling that the bar has been raised."

The reality is that in domestic disturbances. Intervention is far more likely to end poorly for the interveener not the interveenee.

<Snip>
You have a duty to your community, and while that is not something most people believe as most carry for "me and mine" the fact of these situations is that if you simply do nothing and that person dies, you have come dangerously close to giving your honor away, if not given it away freely. This touches on the concept of Dying Well, and there is no greater honor than to act in the defense of your community. If you do not do that, you should not expect anyone else to ever do it for anyone under any circumstance.

I'm flat using the eyeroll emoji -

Honor has minimal place and value in our society today and certainly no bearing on the legal reality of our world. Sorry, but I, for one, do not feel that not acting in a situation that is not in the best interest of myself and my family compromises my personal honor. I work - every day - to take care of my wife, my family, and to be a productive member of our society. Intervening in what has the potential to be a suicidal attempt is the opposite of "dying well", it's "dying foolishly". And to do so is less honorable than to limit yourself to your own ability. If I get killed saving a domestic abuse victim from assault, my wife, my family, and my community aren't going to be better for it. Quite the contrary, I will have, deliberately, cut short my potential contributions to our society. My students, my mentees, my niece and nephews, all denied the ability to learn, grow, and become better people - because I "died well".

There is no glory and honor in death as you envision it, only suffering. Am I proposing that you Yeager it into the nearest ditch and leave your friends to die when the fire is incoming. Nope, not at all, at that point, you get into the fight, charge the contact, and fight to your last breath. But there is a difference between wisely engaging in an exchange and doing something stupid.

As for expecting someone else to come to your aid. I NEVER expect someone else to come to my aid that doesn't know me. I've even had "friends" abandon me when shit got real and violent. I'm well versed in the reality that you may go alone to face violence. To think contrary to this, is to construct a wholly artificial and fallacious concept that you will have backup when the time comes. You probably won't. And when it's all said and done, if you use violence AND you survive, you'll be shunned by a society that pretends violence is never a solution to a problem (where as, it often is a solution). Offering to give the only thing you have, your life, for an unrecognized, unrealistic, frame of glory and honor - is the height of arrogance.

I say this and I mean it. Each person must make their own decision regarding these types of situations. Some may be bound by more than a personal code to report/respond/intervene. BUT do not make these decisions based on external delusions of communal acceptance, honor, or support. Few will light a candle for your memorial, and fewer still will remember you as a martyr. If you choose to give up your own life, it is because you personally choose to do so. Our society is not asking you to. If we do ask you too...you'll know, because we'll send out a draft notice.

[voodoo_man]

I'm flat using the eyeroll emoji -

Honor has minimal place and value in our society today and certainly no bearing on the legal reality of our world. Sorry, but I, for one, do not feel that not acting in a situation that is not in the best interest of myself and my family compromises my personal honor. I work - every day - to take care of my wife, my family, and to be a productive member of our society. Intervening in what has the potential to be a suicidal attempt is the opposite of "dying well", it's "dying foolishly". And to do so is less honorable than to limit yourself to your own ability. If I get killed saving a domestic abuse victim from assault, my wife, my family, and my community aren't going to be better for it. Quite the contrary, I will have, deliberately, cut short my potential contributions to our society. My students, my mentees, my niece and nephews, all denied the ability to learn, grow, and become better people - because I "died well".

There is no glory and honor in death as you envision it, only suffering. Am I proposing that you Yeager it into the nearest ditch and leave your friends to die when the fire is incoming. Nope, not at all, at that point, you get into the fight, charge the contact, and fight to your last breath. But there is a difference between wisely engaging in an exchange and doing something stupid.

As for expecting someone else to come to your aid. I NEVER expect someone else to come to my aid that doesn't know me. I've even had "friends" abandon me when shit got real and violent. I'm well versed in the reality that you may go alone to face violence. To think contrary to this, is to construct a wholly artificial and fallacious concept that you will have backup when the time comes. You probably won't. And when it's all said and done, if you use violence AND you survive, you'll be shunned by a society that pretends violence is never a solution to a problem (where as, it often is a solution). Offering to give the only thing you have, your life, for an unrecognized, unrealistic, frame of glory and honor - is the height of arrogance.

I say this and I mean it. Each person must make their own decision regarding these types of situations. Some may be bound by more than a personal code to report/respond/intervene. BUT do not make these decisions based on external delusions of communal acceptance, honor, or support. Few will light a candle for your memorial, and fewer still will remember you as a martyr. If you choose to give up your own life, it is because you personally choose to do so. Our society is not asking you to. If we do ask you too...you'll know, because we'll send out a draft notice.

“Honor is like an island, rugged and without shores; once we have left it, we can never return”

edit the rest, simply isn't worth it.

[blues]

“Honor is like an island, rugged and without shores; once we have left it, we can never return”

edit the rest, simply isn't worth it.

Reminds me a lot of one of my favorite sayings:

fides, ut anima, unde abiit eo nunquam redit - "trust, like the soul, once departed never returns" - Publilius Syrus