Massad Ayoob: Three reasons why you need to carry extra ammo and magazines

[Clark Jackson]

I respectfully, and without judgement, disagree with @Utm and @Mark D on capacity > reload.

If a weapon is unable to properly cycle, capacity becomes irrelevant. I experienced a real-world event that required a reload two (2) rounds in and that pistol/magazine capacity was 17+1.

I suspect many, many more have experienced similar failure-to-feed issues on a flat range, but inexplicably discount this experiential-knowledge.

In the end, as friend says, outlier events are not outlier events when they happen to you.

[Utm]

What would it hurt to carry an extra magazine, a little more discomfort?
Better to have it and not need it, vs need it and not have it.

It wouldn't hurt, but I also don't feel the need to and there's nothing that's high frequency and factual showing that I would need to

[Utm]

I respectfully, and without judgement, disagree with @Utm and @Mark D on capacity > reload.

If a weapon is unable to properly cycle, capacity becomes irrelevant. I experienced a real-world event that required a reload two (2) rounds in and that pistol/magazine capacity was 17+1.

I suspect many, many more have experienced similar failure-to-feed issues on a flat range, but inexplicably discount this experiential-knowledge.

In the end, as friend says, outlier events are not outlier events when they happen to you.

I understand the precautions, but I have not experienced a factory magazine with a malfunction so catastrophic I could not use the magazine after clearing a malfunction

[feudist]

I understand the precautions, but I have not experienced a factory magazine with a malfunction so catastrophic I could not use the magazine after clearing a malfunction

During the Pit Bull Plague of the early 2000s I was forced to shoot one that had a small child in its mouth. Fleaflicking the child to another officer I started shooting. My Glock jammed after a few rounds and Tap/Rack just induced a double feed. I grabbed my J-frame carried AIWB(I'm left handed) emptied it into the dog, and tossed it.
Lock/Rip/Rack/Reload cleared the jam but my hand velocity was such that the original magazine landed a good distance away--well beyond recovery.
There are all kinds of ways to parse it, but I personally think malfunctions/dropped mags are more common in fights than widely acknowledged.
This was a box stock gun/mag well vetted with Gold Dot.

[Cory]

Each person has to make a long of line of choices about capacity and reloads in the world of defense. I'm comfortable with whatever choice others make for themselves, and perpetually seeking to better inform my self for my own choices.

High capacity full size guns are great. Flawless concealment is great.
A reload is great. So is comfort.
A tourniquet is great. So is convenience.
A flashlight is great. So is wearing clothes that fit your area.
A folding knife is great. So is having no pocket clips.
A fixed knife is great. So is financial responsibility.
A sub second draw to a CNS hit is great. So is a hidden draw.
A shotgun is great...

There are many dichotomies that defensive practioners need to balance. Not all of the above are competing ideas but they all intertwine. We each make choices to suit us. I'm cool with whatever yours are.

But these problems aren't always shooting problems either. If it was always a guns issue I wouldn't be working on my strength and conditioning, and we would all carry USPSA guns. But reality is that scenario training with weapons can have you staring at a bright orange J frame shaped peice of plastic and realizing your family would have to go it alone. And that orange shape can be easier to get at then some better shooting shapes.

There are no clear answers, but there can be clear lessons.

[Crazy Dane]

Let me tell you about both of my one-shot wonders and why I carry extra mags.

The first one happened when I met with one of my best shooting buddies and we would shoot "what ya got on you", cold. We picked out our drill and hung the targets, this particular day I was carrying my Colt 1991A1 Commander with Chip McCormick mags and Speer 230gr gold dot ammo in a summer comfort holster. When the timer beeped and a made my first shot, the magazine decided to shit its guts out with all the ammo. I managed to strip the offending mag body out and get the spare in to finish the drill.


The second incident happened at a fall festival where they shut the town down and everyone walks the streets. This night I was carrying a Springfield Loaded Champion model with a Wilson 47D mag*, Gold Dot ammo in the same summer comfort holster. I enjoyed the festival with my date that I had met there and when the evening ended, I made way back to my truck where upon opening the door I found the magazine that was supposed to be in my weapon lying in the drivers seat. I did not have a spare because I knew my date would be tucking her hands in side my jacket on the side I normally would carry the and did not want to impede her hand warming. She knew I carried and had no issues with it.

In both instances I would have only had one shot before I needed a new mag in the gun. Extra mags are for when Mr. Murphy shows up.

[Mark D]

I respectfully, and without judgement, disagree with @Utm and @Mark D on capacity > reload.

If a weapon is unable to properly cycle, capacity becomes irrelevant. I experienced a real-world event that required a reload two (2) rounds in and that pistol/magazine capacity was 17+1.

I suspect many, many more have experienced similar failure-to-feed issues on a flat range, but inexplicably discount this experiential-knowledge.

Thanks for sharing that. I accept your point.

as friend says, outlier events are not outlier events when they happen to you.

That's pretty profound.

[Ed L]

I wrote this awhile ago in an argument that 5 is enough and you are nuts if you carry more. If can't do it in 5, you ain't getting the job done - Quote for a clerk in an Austin gun store (kind of a pompous jerk on several occasions). Added some new nuances.

Anyway:

From the desk of President Joe Biden:

It is necessary to keep handguns from the evil doers in our society. Selling even law abiding citizens handguns eventually creates a stock that may filter into the hands of criminals or rampagers through theft or unsupervised private sales. Join me in banning handguns in civilian use. As the experts on the gun forums say:
Still the odds of you ever having to use a gun defensively are still so incredibly slim. Even if you do, you will only fire 3 rounds at most. One round of 9mm will blow your lungs out. Why should civilians have such weapons when the odds of usage are so low - as said in the forums of gun supporters!

Given these odds why supply the instruments of thousands of suicides and the lethal tools of urban gun violence? We support the 2nd Amendment and the supporting use of bolt action rifles for hunting. As Senator Amy Klobuchar said as she ran against me, in evaluating gun laws: “Would this hurt my Uncle Dick in the deer stand?” As I said, a simple shotgun shot through the door or in the air will suffice. Semiautomatic weapons are too hard for the average citizen to master.

A handgun ban will not hurt Uncle Dick but will save lives!

Thank you.

President Joseph Biden.

------------

My point repeatedly is that you may carry what you want but to say that a 5 is enough gun is optimal is just foolish. It is a compromise due to circumstance or based on a misunderstanding of risk and statistics. The average doesn't always happen and one should think about a reasonable criterion in the more intense critical incidents. That level of significance is (from reasonable professionals) a semi and a reload. Spouting the mantra of carrying more isn't optimal is just evidence for the banning of higher capacity guns as the latter have the potential for rampages and gang usage.

First of all, where did anyone reach that conclusion in that fictitious Biden Tweet that banning handguns is supported by a gun forum?

Secondly, if you are developing a doctrine based on what stupid people say on forums and in gunstores you will have a program of instruction that includes: not carrying a round in the chamber, firing warning shots, using birdshot, opening a locked door to see who is outside or confront someone in a suspicious and possibly violent situation, and moving the body of someone you shoot in some circumstances, and other things that are clearly stupid.

While some people may say that 5 is enough, it is not agreed upon by most people. Tom Givens has said, "I have debriefed a lot of people after gunfights, and I’ve never had a single one say to me, “You know, when the bullets started flying I wished I had a smaller, less powerful gun, with less ammo in it.”

Tom Givens has had some of his students fire anywhere from 8 rounds to slidelock in their defensive shootings. They would have been in bad shape if they only had 5 rounds.

When we carry small guns, we are prioritizing convenience and concealability over capability. Sometimes this is due to wardrobe requirements, body type, back problems, physical limitations, or some combination of the aforementioned. This is totally acceptable and is often necessary given the circumstances. I do it myself sometimes and it is not a problem as long as you are cognizant of the limitations.

Smaller guns tend to hold less rounds, be harder to shoot accurately, and often have less power because of their shorter barrels (from what I understand most hollowpoints won't expand when fired from the 2" barrel of a J-frame).

The smaller, lesser capable, lower capacity gun may or may not be enough for your defensive situation. Some people carry larger guns with a higher capacity, and more people are likely to keep those types of guns in their homes for their enhanced capability since concealability is not an issue with a home defense gun.

To be clear, I am a big advocate of small, easy to carry guns, like J-frames, Kahr PM-9, etc, because some situations and circumstances can limit what someone can carry. However, I think we do need have to accept the limitations of smaller, lower capacity, less powerful, harder to shoot, and often less often accurate firearms.

It is one thing to say that "this is all I can carry for whatever reasons." It is a completely different to say this is all anyone can/should carry--be it a person who is saying this, or a government.

[Ed L]

Tom Givens has described the problem as time in the fight. Also, that the lower capacity guns are described as one opponent guns. Now voting isn't the correct metaphor as you only should vote once.

This is one of the oldest debates in the modern gun world. There is no reason for not having an extra mag that makes sense. Why does this go on? So you are lazy, so you think you will only have an one opponent fight that has everything go well. Your gun works. You hit your target. The hit is effective - sure. Most drives in my car go well on a probability basis, but I still wear my seat belt for the low occurrence accident that would have launched me through my windshield. I still have sequela from that one.

Yes, I sometimes carry a J when constrained by dress, but there is a speed strip with me.

I believe Dagga Boy? Darryl once said that it is a good idea to carry a speed strip for a J-frame, because if nothing else, it will allow you to reload the gun after the defensive shooting is over so you have a fully loaded gun in case any of the attackers friends show up before the police arrive.

[CraigS]

Let me tell you about both of my one-shot wonders and why I carry extra mags.

The first one happened when I met with one of my best shooting buddies and we would shoot "what ya got on you", cold. We picked out our drill and hung the targets, this particular day I was carrying my Colt 1991A1 Commander with Chip McCormick mags and Speer 230gr gold dot ammo in a summer comfort holster. When the timer beeped and a made my first shot, the magazine decided to shit its guts out with all the ammo. I managed to strip the offending mag body out and get the spare in to finish the drill.


The second incident happened at a fall festival where they shut the town down and everyone walks the streets. This night I was carrying a Springfield Loaded Champion model with a Wilson 47D mag*, Gold Dot ammo in the same summer comfort holster. I enjoyed the festival with my date that I had met there and when the evening ended, I made way back to my truck where upon opening the door I found the magazine that was supposed to be in my weapon lying in the drivers seat. I did not have a spare because I knew my date would be tucking her hands in side my jacket on the side I normally would carry the and did not want to impede her hand warming. She knew I carried and had no issues with it.

In both instances I would have only had one shot before I needed a new mag in the gun. Extra mags are for when Mr. Murphy shows up.

Dang, do you still carry 1911s?