The role of in person classes in training versus online coaching and self-video.

[Clusterfrack]

I’m a big fan of one-on-one in-person training. Most of the classes I’ve taken were 90% learning how to train and why, and 10% 1-on-1 teaching me how to improve. If I could have a full time coach, that would be great. But I can’t, so I self-diagnose, and get help from friends in person and online.

The success of the PSTG Gold level shows that online training can provide a decent proxy for in person coaching.

[DDTSGM]

I think that it might be important to determine the motivation of this mythical everyman we seem to be discussing.

How much of a person's ego is wrapped up in the task being instructed is important. Is it going to crush their self-esteem if they don't achieve mastery?

What do they perceive as mastery?

To me, this is a major determining factor in how much mental horsepower they can and will devote to the process.

This, again, in my opinion, is why some students excel in problem-based learning and other's founder.

JCN is obviously a PBL savant, at least in firearms, and it may be hard for him to understand that others don't have the drive and mental HP that he does.

The most telling argument he makes for everyman is the observation that in person you generally get one or two shots at absorbing the info, video allows you to isolate and repeat pertinent aspects.

Performing self-video diagnostics is difficult unless you have a pretty sound knowledge of the subject.

So, IMO, for the average joe, a combination of different techniques works best.

[Sal Picante]

Using online resources from experts, self-video analysis and thoughtful and longitudinal practice, someone can get quite competent at handgun and long gun shooting without in-person training.

I agree quite a bit - we live in a time where the information is so readily available - but I think I'll discuss one thing here...

7. Spending one hour with a world class coach might have improved my skill by 0.0001% compared to what I'm doing because most of the improvement is in the work.

But realistically at this level I would expect maybe 0.05% improvement or less from 1 hour of coaching.

I'm a good shooter, but spending 2 days on the range with Eric, listening to discussions with other shooters/etc was a big catalyst.
I look at my performance from Florida State Match as proof of that.

Something changed in my sequencing of the tasks, not my raw ability performing the fundamentals, that lead to a ~5-10% increase in performance.

If I really think about it, the rate of skills/performance acquisition isn't linear. Sometimes the improvements come in leaps.

Should you consider live training? Probably.
Should you do online training? Probably.
Should you train? Definitely.

[JHC]

I agree quite a bit - we live in a time where the information is so readily available - but I think I'll discuss one thing here...



I'm a good shooter, but spending 2 days on the range with Eric, listening to discussions with other shooters/etc was a big catalyst.
I look at my performance from Florida State Match as proof of that.

Something changed in my sequencing of the tasks, not my raw ability performing the fundamentals, that lead to a ~5-10% increase in performance.

If I really think about it, the rate of skills/performance acquisition isn't linear. Sometimes the improvements come in leaps.

Should you consider live training? Probably.
Should you do online training? Probably.
Should you train? Definitely.

I think you'll know the answer. Didn't Ben Stoeger go from zero in 2005 to winning national titles on his own independent study and vast amounts of work? I thought so but not sure. And a current trainer doesn't exactly say that on his "About" page.

[GJM]

There isn't much I am absolutely sure about. Something I am sure about, is shooters that think learning only comes from in person classes or never comes from in person classes are wrong.

Les, your 5-10 percent in a particular match may have been real, but I would bet attending a two day of class didn't do that.

[LukeNCMX]

Shooting can be learned inductively and thus remotely. Stoeger and his whole approach (high level explanation followed by specific drills and careful focus) is proof of how successful this style of learning can be.

Alternatively, if you appreciate an extremely detailed explanation with numerous props and live demos to put the correct idea of a technique in your head, then something like TPC's material can be a huge jump start in the right direction.

I appreciate and learn a lot from both.

Ultimately I think in-person classes biggest benefit is for the right people at the right point in their journey it can be a big shortcut.

Also, nothing has the same gravity as watching a high level shooter rip through a drill or stage in-person to re-frame what is possible in a student's mind.

[mizer67]

I've taken my share of in-person classes and come away mostly wanting. Not that there are not nuggets to be had, but it's few and far between given the time, expense and travel. When you have a 1:6 or 1:8 shooter to instructor ratio, you're likely to get even less personal attention than the %'s dictate if you're in the top ~quartile of the class.

I'm not pretentious enough to think that I can't benefit from 1:1 time with a competent coach from time to time, but I'm not convinced classes with 12 or 15 other people on the line are the optimal way to access that knowledge. Private training sessions may be a better use of time, either through video, live or a combination. Or at least that's the conclusion I've drawn from my experiences.

Classes teach you how to learn, or sometimes new concepts, but usually it all comes down to repetition afterwards to ingrain what you've learned anyway so...there will always be an element of individual, dedicated practice and an ability to self-assess to reach high levels of competence.

[rob_s]

There are so many factors to performance at any physical activity that extend way beyond how you train or who you train with.

To start with, natural ability and the mental (disorder? Grit? Determination? Disability?) to put I the work mean more than just about anything else imo.

And frankly, the people that have those two attributes are generally completely blind to what it takes for someone without them to get there.

Additionally, there is so much more to why a class might benefit one guy or not another than just whether or not classes are the only way to excel. Time commitments, dedication, *gasp* !fun!, “osmosis”, range availability, etc. all play a factor. Some antisocial type-a weird ass may not benefit at all while a social butterfly with no decent local range options may get a lot out of it.

Between these two, I don’t know why people keep engaging in these arguments. One guy got awesome sitting alone in his basement after his shift at Arby’s and eventually got kicked out of his game of choice? Fucking awesome. Another guy took 30 classes over 5 years and only got to “Expert” or whatever? Who cares?

[JCN]

There are so many factors to performance at any physical activity that extend way beyond how you train or who you train with.

To start with, natural ability and the mental (disorder? Grit? Determination? Disability?) to put I the work mean more than just about anything else imo.

And frankly, the people that have those two attributes are generally completely blind to what it takes for someone without them to get there.

I'm going to disagree with the above and please, please read with an open mind because that's the reason to discuss this in the first place.

1. Most physical activities have a large mental component and it's the mental component that limits most people over the physical.
2. There is such a thing as "natural" physical and mental limitation... but the bulk of what governs success is HOW PEOPLE LEARN and that's trainable.

So how do I know what I know?

1. A large part of my career training and job is teaching people HOW TO LEARN. Not just getting them to a certain point, but helping them learn how to learn.
2. I've worked with probably 15+ people on PF over the past three years in a longitudinal coaching capacity. That's not a lot of people compared to formal trainers and people who have large classes, but I have longitudinal follow up in a way that formal trainers might not.

You're right. If someone doesn't want to put the work in (20 min a day, 5 days per week) then most of the time it doesn't go anywhere. Putting in the work is a prerequisite. Sure, sometimes people get sidelined from injury or big life events and that's totally okay. But like exercise and New Year's Resolutions... if you don't put in the work it won't happen.



But....

My specialty is helping people who ARE motivated, but need help with the self-assessment... the people who have plateaued and extra classes and traditional drills haven't moved the needle.

This is where my special skills and training come into play, not just for me dry firing in my basement... but to help others. And that's a specific application where online and video coaching shines.




Some of my most fulfilling interactions are helping people learn how to learn by focusing their attention and constructing appropriate drills. If they put in the work, it's great to see them bust through the plateau.


If you haven't seen it, here are some highlights. The SWYNTS thread is the latest ongoing training endeavor to help others.

Some of the below quotes are edited for brevity

It all started a number of months back when I posted that I was looking for budget-friendly ideas for an “Open P365” for Sig Sauer Academy’s P365 EDC Championship. I’ve dabbled in local competition for the past ten or so years but never seriously trained. My erratic scores are usually a result of me going much too fast for my skill level, with the result being way too many C zone and D zone hits.

JCN was quick to offer me guidance, messaging me details of why he selected the specific components he did for his own Open P365 project. Every component was backed by data and/or video, with reasons as to why he chose that particular modification. As the conversation progressed he offered to coach me up for the competition remotely, as we live a few thousand miles apart.

Where to start? By determining where I needed to improve most.

“What are you issued?”

“Glock 17, Gen4”

“Ok great, we’ll practice with that and most of your improvements will transfer over to the smaller gun.”

“Well, there’s an issue…”

With the standard Glock trigger in the full-size frame, I *very* consistently hit left. To the point I pushed my rear sight all the way to the right, which gave me acceptable police qual groupings out to 15 yards. I have two Glock 17s where I’ve pushed the sights to the right, as well as my previously issued Glock 22.

So I was embarrassed to admit what I needed to work on was the most basic of shooting skills, trigger control.

So began a daily ten-minute regimen of dry fire. Nothing sexy or flashy, just basic trigger practice. Perfect trigger press. Work the slide. Repeat. For weeks. I would send videos and pics of my grip, trigger control and would receive personalized feedback on ways I could improve.

So after about a month I hit the range. My 10 yard groups were tight, tighter than I’d ever expect to see from a Glock 17. But they were still hitting left. Not as far left as I usually would shoot, but left nonetheless.

Over the years, my learned bad habits had me flagging my thumbs high - great for when you shoot a bunch of different guns without focusing on skill development with any one frame. One grip would work with Berettas, 1911’s, Sigs, etc. I would also put as little trigger finger pad on th

So JCN taught me some things that have changed my Glock shooting forever:

-Rotate your right hand slightly counter-clockwise. -Put more finger into the trigger.
-Curl your right thumb up and press it into the frame.
-Rotate your trigger finger “down” to minimize dragging on the frame and to isolate movement.
-Dry fire that until it feels natural.

So I did. A lot. And with a few more range sessions, this happened-

Over the summer I’ve gone from having relatively low confidence in my ability to make precise hits with my duty gun, to now knowing I can drop rounds into a 2” target at 10 yards, on demand, thanks to JCN’s extremely helpful and generous coaching.

Today was day 6 of this coaching regimen. JCN modified the dry fire routine a bit for today. Yesterday I did my second live fire session. I've got a little homestead on a bit of acreage so I shoot here at home. This makes brief but frequent live fire a possibility for me, and JCN is taking advantage of that.

Basically in that 2 weeks and 44 rounds, you now have a reliable 1.0 draw with sub-20 splits and ~20 transitions.

Lots of progress in a short period of time.

It’s only been two weeks and you’re already a big step forward from where you were! Will continue to refine accuracy at this speed and start adding in more game specific stuff.

I guess that's how I have approached dry fire, to the point where my initial training journal just was a 28 day challenge thing. Only it's funny--there, the challenge wasn't to work on some specific skill, it was just to generally dry fire every day for a certain period. I'm pretty solid in the land of abstractions, but step into the embodied world and I start to get confused.

Having a coach who has worked cognitively through the psycho-motor stuff sufficiently to be able to break down specific pathways to improvement is a tremendous blessing to me. I feel like after this 3 month interaction with JCN, I'll be much better able to coach myself. But I have definitely needed this help to get me going. We've still got more than 2 months left. Looking forward to see where we get.

We added a new drill today, which was very accuracy-focused. The program keeps changing. Exciting.

My previous training journal was a joint effort with JCN, who offered me a bunch of coaching last year to break me out what had been a long-term plateau at a lowish level of performance.

So I worked a lot with JCN on speed last year, and I made some major improvements. This fall, I need to focus on making shots at speed with confidence. I am very timid once we get out past 7 yards. Even at 7 yards I probably overaim. I'm also still inconsistent on getting my grip correct.


This is an open journal because I am definitely interested in suggestions!

It does appear that I finally made B class, which is nice, but as JCN pointed out in response to my last diatribe here, the goal isn't B class, so that's no big deal. I'm focusing on those higher classifier scores, and will be working to get my shooting more consistently up to those levels, and higher, as I go along.

@JCS is one of my favorite students. We spent a lot of time up front challenging him to be more self-observant and mentally present in his work and he noticed the benefits translating over to other aspects of his life.

I'll just add that if you put in the work and learn how to self analyze and let the shark brain do the work, the results won't stop. I've similarly seen pretty incredible growth in my shooting using a tailored and focused program that's constantly pushing me just beyond my limits. My biggest gains have come after repeated failures when I stepped back and asked myself why am I doing _______? Once you determine the problem work on problem solving. If you can't figure it out reach out to someone who's further along than you and they can save you some time.

Glad to see you're progressing!!

I tried what @JCN suggested last night and overall saw real improvement, particularly at the 7 yard stage.

I made the time several times at 3 yards with the gun up in my eyeline. What I noticed is that, while I did not generally have a sight picture for the first round beyond “gun in eyeline, roughly on target,” the second round was on or very close to the mark. I was breaking the second shot while the gun was still in motion and seeing the dot crossing onto the target. I think this is a positive development.

I’ll post more detailed thoughts when I’m home, but:
- I went 5/5 for sub-second draws at 3. All were mid-high .9s. I haven’t done that before. Splits in the low .2s, which put my times between 1.14 and 1.21.
- My 3yd stage did not have the hits I wanted (2/10 off the 8.5x11, basically in the shoulder of the USPSA target). I believe these rounds were both first shots.
- My 7yd stage overall felt fantastic. I had a screw up on one run but on the others, the hits were where I wanted them and the times were right (draws around 1.25, .25 splits).
- My 15yd stage went well except for one run where I placed the dot in the wrong spot and pressed the trigger anyway. That would have been fixed by patience. No issues with the times.

Thanks, @JCN.

What was telling to me was my subsequent performance on my usual range drills. I shot two runs at the Test, with 1.46 and 1.50 draws, both in the black (total time around 6s for both - mid-90s scores). The Bakersfield PD qual was an easy pass for me today. Trying (and failing) a Defoor hat qual with a 2.05 draw (time was good, I just couldn’t put a round in the black to save my life on this run - most shots in the 8 ring with a 10.45s time. Should’ve slowed down and used more of the available time). Burning my remaining 5 rounds into a 3” circle at 5 yards was a 1.29s draw. None of these are overly impressive for some, but they’re consistently better times than I usually put up. Is there an argument to be made that I was warmed up? Absolutely. But nevertheless, I was happy with the results.

So that's the main reason why I'm posting this. Having someone who teaches you how to think, observe and be your own teacher can be super useful for people who need help learning how to learn but are willing to put in the work. It's more useful to give a dedicated online 5 minutes here and there when they need it rather than a lumped 1000 round class when they don't.

SWYNTS thread is here. We welcome anyone who wants to get started at any time!

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....o-see-training

[YVK]

If someone starts in isolation and without in person training, how does one choose between Stoeger video material vs Mike Glover vs Corey&Erica?