I don't hunt or shoot or hang out with unsafe gun handlers. I avoid them all together.
I don't hunt or shoot or hang out with unsafe gun handlers. I avoid them all together.
Someone stated they felt El Patron thought people were smart enough to figure out the non-literal aspects of his four rules. I disagree, Cooper considered himself to be of the patrician class and most others were simple plebes. In short, they were too stupid to grasp subtlety so the rules had to be pretty basic. In many ways he wasn't wrong.Originally Posted by JAD
If anyone wants to pick apart Coopers rules with semantic voodoo, my only advice would be to get the stick out of your ass. It should be fairly obvious to any reasonably intelligent person what the rules cover and what their purpose is. If your so shallow and simple that you can't grasp that "all guns are always loaded" means "treat all guns as if they're loaded" than you're really too stupid to go armed in polite society. Also, if a guy has nothing better to do than to bitch about the obtuse and linear nature of Coopers rules, then the USAF needs to find something for him to do.
Last edited by Trooper224; 05-15-2018 at 01:05 AM.
We may lose and we may win, but we will never be here again.......
For those that make comments like "you're stupid if you can't understand what Cooper meant", I wonder how many youths/slightly autistic adults have you trained in firearm handling safety? Kids tend to take things very literally and so the youth firearm program that I volunteer with at my club teaches the NRA rules since the Gunsite rules did not work well. As I understand it, the Boy Scouts also teach the NRA rules. I don't consider the kids stupid, nor the literal minded adults.
I was trying to avoid opening this can of worms, but I've found that the NRA rules work a lot better with folks brand new to firearms than Cooper's.
Last edited by SiriusBlunder; 05-15-2018 at 08:11 AM. Reason: I don't write good so I fixed my grammar to be well.
What’s obtuse is veiled insults on an Internet page. Is it so impossible to consider that perhaps Col. Cooper didn’t have all the answers?
It isn’t semantic voodoo to say “treat all guns as if there’re loaded” is factually inaccurate. Just like consciously keeping ones finger out of the trigger under stress is also a lot harder then many think. Further- so many claim they want more people to exercise their Constitutional rights. Well ,this means the morons and the hipsters and gasp,even the liberal minded get to carry along with Badass McFaceshooter. So maybe a safety culture beyond just four rules authored before the Nixon administration is a net benefit ,especially when trained and untrained people routinely fail to the Four Rules.
The Minority Marksman.
"When you meet a swordsman, draw your sword: Do not recite poetry to one who is not a poet."
-a Ch'an Buddhist axiom.
I re-read the Cooper's Commentaries I have for references to the 4 rules. I found some interesting comments I didn't recall (bold emphasis added by me).
In 2001 he wrote:
In 2003 he wrote:We were panned recently by a reader who claimed that of our four rules, Rule 1 is not a rule but rather a statement. "All guns are always loaded" is, as our man said, not a guide to conduct, but rather a statement of condition. The criticism is correct, but we are not going to change our rules on that account. We think that "treat all guns as if they were loaded" implies with the "as if" qualification a dangerous choice of assumptions. The four basic rules of safety may not be structurally perfect, but we intend to leave them the way they are.
It is a continuing annoyance to see people messing around with the safety rules. The four that have been developed over the years suffice entirely as now stated. There is no need for more, and we really cannot get by with fewer. However, some half-educated enthusiasts keep trying to make up a new set, or to add or subtract, which does nothing but serve to confuse matters. A major point of issue is Rule 1, "All guns are always loaded." There are people who insist that we cannot use this because it is not precisely true. Some guns are sometimes unloaded. These folks maintain that the rule should read that one should always treat all guns as if they were loaded. The trouble here is the "as if," which leads to the notion that the instrument at hand may actually not be loaded. This leads to disaster, yet we hear it all the time. Sometimes it appears we become so obsessed with the ephemeral goal of safety that we lose sight of the purpose of the exercise. Safety is not first. Safety is second. Victory (or success) is first.
A cute quote. It’ll look real nice on a tombstone if you shoot yourself fatally.
Look,I don’t get where folks think I’m panning Col. Cooper. My point isn’t to toss rocks at his commentary or perspective; it’s to offer the idea that in an age where we see people of all walks in life having challenges with weapons safety that perhaps a more thourough approach to firearm safety is called for .When cops,military members,and citizens are hurting themselves and others from gun related accidents perhaps rethinking the current safety paradigm is a good idea.
The Four Rules aren’t terrible,but they are flawed. We all can recall cases of people disregarding or routinely violating those safety statements; my idea is that we should do something about that.
The Minority Marksman.
"When you meet a swordsman, draw your sword: Do not recite poetry to one who is not a poet."
-a Ch'an Buddhist axiom.
I agree they are flawed, but I understand what they are trying to accomplish.
Can the NRA rules for firearm handling be improved upon? Maybe, but I have to use them at the youth program so use them whenever I work with a newbie, too.
I didn't have time at the moment to expand on "interesting".
What I found interesting is that he acknowledges Rule #1 isn't a rule, but he's still calling it a rule and leaving it in a list of rules.
The 2nd quote was disturbing to me, especially since he says the rules apply everywhere. Is it still "Victory" in a gun fight if I hit an innocent person, too, during the incident? If I shoot myself as you point out?
"Victory" at home/training means to me no ND or at least no-one injured if I screw up and have an ND so I think Safety is #1 at home and training.
Also, as BehindBlueI's mentioned earlier, there is more to overall firearm safety than just gun handling safety, so let's not forget about that...
Last edited by SiriusBlunder; 05-15-2018 at 11:52 AM.
Clint seems to address you directly at 1:48
https://youtu.be/o6Y7LIJm5gI
I don't think Gardone is arguing that Cooper's rules are to be rejected wholesale out of hand. I believe he is attempting to argue (somewhat ineffectively, apparently) that they are incomplete or inadequate for today's needs. As I stated earlier, in some ways I agree with this. Cooper intended his rules to apply to beginners and veteran shooters alike, and they are therefore simple and succinct. But as I said, for armed professionals I like Pannones take on them (coming from his unit experience). The reason that I like them is they demand MORE from the armed professionals. Having been on patrol with morons with unloaded guns on more than one occasion, "Always be absolutely certain of the condition of your weapon" seems like a better version of Rule 1 to me, while keeping with Cooper's purpose. As has been noted by others...it's the Modern Technique", and should evolve and improve. My two cents.
Last edited by AMC; 05-15-2018 at 02:16 PM.
The problem I have with "always be absolutely certain of the condition of your weapon" is this: how many people have had a ND when they were absolutely certain their gun was unloaded?
Rule #1 prepares the mindset thusly: that gun you are about to pick up is loaded. Treat it accordingly.
What the hell else needs to be said about it?
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