Competition gets you killed on the streets.

[psalms144.1]

How many days to PFestivus?

[Cory]

So lets do this bit without the personal attacks, shall we?

I didn't see any personal attacks.

I agree that a well rounded set of skills is needed. However, suggesting that the benefits of regular competition style shooting (and practice) is less then the detriment is silly in my opinion. Likewise, suggesting that no thought should be dedicated to "mindset" or other factors is equally stupid. However, I have yet to see that advocated anywhere. At least some folks are advocating the opposite however. Do you think those folks are right? That you shouldn't ever shoot competition because the bad habits it might create are worse than the skills you might develop?

-Cory

[Mitch]

That's a bit ridiculous. I trust that you can make effective shoot/no shoot decisions under stress based on other posts you've made about experiences on the job. That is worlds more difficult than remembering not to punch someone during BJJ training.

You're there to work a specific skill. That's like saying you won't dry fire because you have to manually reset the trigger, even though it's a proven way to improve your skills.


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[GJM]

Shooting is doing fundamentals like gripping the pistol, aligning the sights, pressing the trigger, and transitioning between targets. Since feelings lie, we use timers to evaluate performance against standards, and track progress.

Competition is merely doing these same fundamentals, but with the stress of others observing, while applying fundamentals to solving problems that others have designed. "Score" is just a benchmark to compare performance against standards and others. Most shooters focused on improvement want the challenge of shooting difficult new problems and want the feedback of comparing their performance to that of others.

Practicing only by yourself, solving only your own shooting problems is analogous to only singing in the shower and comparing yourself to Beyonce.

[Mr_White]

So lets do this bit without the personal attacks, shall we?

That is not a personal attack. It is simply pointing out that you were inventing a strawman and arguing against something that no one said. In fact, some of us specifically said the opposite of the strawman you were propping up and arguing against.

As for BJJ, I have to quit every few months and practice/train the proper way of doing things for several months. I am on and off with it because it of that. I also do a good bit of training beyond that (striking, weapons retention/application) while attending classes before or after with other LEO's. For me BJJ is an awesome workout, that just happens to give you a very small set of skill set which may or may not be applicable for the average person. I often have to stop myself from striking and stopping at the buzzer. I also don't follow all the rules, which was accepted by the instructors after a conversation on this very topic.

It sounds like you find sufficient value in BJJ to outweigh the bad reps of tapping out, not striking, (presumably?) not wearing your full duty or off-duty clothing and gear during BJJ, and all the many other things that are 'unrealistic' about BJJ - very much like what I said about competition - availing ourselves of the benefits and shoring up the weaknesses through varied activity:

Competition isn't suitable as the SOLE method of preparation for self-defense, and neither is any other type of training or activity. You have to use multiple methods of preparation to shore up the different weaknesses that ALL of them have, including well-conducted tactical training. And competition can provide some very powerful benefits that are hard to get elsewhere.

[Joe in PNG]

I wonder- do NASCAR drivers sit helplessly at the right turn on an intersection because of their competition scars?

[jetfire]

I've read that, and I have to disagree.

You'd think that people would want to document cops getting killed because of bad TPPs, but hey whatever. Disagree with actual observable facts and counter with personal, unverifiable anecdote.

I'm out.

[SLG]

It doesn't matter what they test. The key is having to, on demand, solve someone else's problem. That is what makes competition an invaluable addition to self directed practice.

I don't agree on a couple of levels. One is about the problem solving aspect, the other is that it doesn't matter. Do you shoot Bullseye or PPC? How about Bianchi cup?

[BehindBlueI's]

Does either side of this debate ever read the thousands of examples compiled by the NRA on defensive gun use by private citizens? Because every month there are any number of accounts that all but dismiss any concerns about Mindset, or how to effectively run a firearm beyond which end to point at the bad guy.

This is true. But it's also propaganda. It's selective reporting, and doesn't compile the examples where people failed.

I agree the shooting is generally the easy part. I agree that surprise and speed generally win the day. However, I've seen enough people dead with a holstered gun, reaching for off body carry, with a fucking empty chamber, etc. that I won't dismiss the idea that some level of training equates to better outcomes more often.

[Joe in PNG]

This is true. But it's also propaganda. It's selective reporting, and doesn't compile the examples where people failed.

I agree the shooting is generally the easy part. I agree that surprise and speed generally win the day. However, I've seen enough people dead with a holstered gun, reaching for off body carry, with a fucking empty chamber, etc. that I won't dismiss the idea that some level of training equates to better outcomes more often.

Even with the success stories, there's quite a few where the good guy had to retrieve a gun in an off body location (and gets shot in the process).