And Yet Another 320 Lawsuit?

[BehindBlueI's]

As I glanced through this thread, I had one thought. How does one prove way, way after the fact, that a gun went off WITHOUT the trigger being moved either by the person's finger or by some object?

Primarily because they aren't going off in someone's hand or during holstering.

If you drop a duty belt with a gun in a retention holster and it fires, what could have pulled the trigger? Inertia, but no foreign object.

Almost any discharge of a gun securely holstered precludes a foreign object pulling the trigger. Exceptions do occur, primarily with "big mouthed" holsters that allow for a weapon light, which have enough room for a foreign object (say, a handcuff key) to get inside.

Forensics will show if a gun was fired in the holster, and were the muzzle level was when it occurred. Once the muzzle is deep enough, it's not a finger.

At the institutional level, the event will generally be recreated with a non-firing cartridge in the chamber but the gun weighted the same. If the recreation also touches the gun off, that's a pretty solid sign.

[BehindBlueI's]

^
This. As soon as you think you're infallible, you significantly up the % chance that you'll prove yourself wrong about that assessment. I guess @willie has never made a mistake in a moment of inattention or overconfidence.

When I learned to ride a motorcycle, the mantra wasn't "if you go down" it was "when you go down", ride long enough and you'll go down. Same for unintended discharges. Handle a weapon long enough, you'll have one. The goal is to make it so unlikely your natural lifespan expires before you handle one long enough, but I continue to find the "when, not if" mindset helpful. Which is why I won't carry a non-SCD equipped striker fired gun appendix, why I dry fire at a gun safe or a cinder block wall, etc. I will eventually fuck it up and take steps to mitigate the harm when I do. If you'll never fuck it up, you could point the gun at your temple when you pull the trigger to break the gun down, but we aren't robots so we all recognize that's foolish.

[olstyn]

Which is why I won't carry a non-SCD equipped striker fired gun appendix

I don't own any Glocks, but if I ever do, they'll all get Gadgets/SCDs before being carried, regardless of whether it's AIWB. My P99 and P99c have their decocker buttons held down when holstering. (As I've mentioned on the forum before, this is functionally similar to an SCD.)

why I dry fire at a gun safe or a cinder block wall

Yup, at the very least, that first dry press is pointed at the interior wall on the the other side of which is my safe. Should I screw up and leave a round in the chamber, the bullet would have to penetrate 2x drywall, 1x gun safe wall (steel + drywall + carpet), whatever is inside the gun safe (in my case, a bunch of folders of important documents + an internal carpet-wrapped drywall wall, and then some long guns), another gun safe wall, and then at least 2x more drywall before it could endanger my neighbors. That's a lot of stuff for a 9mm round to get through and still have enough energy to do harm. I figure it would most likely stop somewhere in the folders of documents, and even if not there, would be highly unlikely to actually exit the safe.

[Tokarev]

Lots of talk of the Striker Control Device.

Reholstering in a hurry is not something a civilian is likely to need to practice. But LE often operate under different rules of engagement. As an example; a suspect is threatening an officer with a knife. The officer draws his pistol in response. Then the suspect drops the knife, clenched his fists and starts advancing toward the officer. Deadly force is likely no longer the appropriate response so the officer must reholster immediately and draw his baton, spray, ECW. In a similar scenario, the officer has his pistol out but the suspect drops the knife and runs away. The officer can give chase with pistol in hand but should probably put the gun away.

Question for those who use the SCD. Does the short trigger travel and amount the SCD sticks out allow enough "reaction time" to stop holstering if a problem arises? Does thumb pressure on the SCD otherwise prevent the trigger from being pulled by a finger or other object during reholstering?

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[Savage Hands]

Glock is not more expensive. They all about the same. If anything, I always thought Sig is more expensive.

Alan I know you’re a new member, but holy moly you need to read, research and then ask questions than post...

[RevolverRob]

Does thumb pressure on the SCD otherwise prevent the trigger from being pulled by a finger or other object during reholstering?

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

Yes. Pressure on the SCD blocks rearward movement of the trigger. Because it prevents rearward motion of the striker and thus does not allow the "sear" (trigger bar) in a Glock to move.

It is the effectively the same as thumbing the hammer on a DA gun.

The only potential things safer than a decocked DA or Glock with SCD would be riding the hammer on a cocked and locked pistol (thus preventing the hammer from being able to hit the firing pin) or riding the hammer on a Beretta/Walther type decock safety that is in safe mode.

[TheNewbie]

Lots of talk of the Striker Control Device.

Reholstering in a hurry is not something a civilian is likely to need to practice. But LE often operate under different rules of engagement. As an example; a suspect is threatening an officer with a knife. The officer draws his pistol in response. Then the suspect drops the knife, clenched his fists and starts advancing toward the officer. Deadly force is likely no longer the appropriate response so the officer must reholster immediately and draw his baton, spray, ECW. In a similar scenario, the officer has his pistol out but the suspect drops the knife and runs away. The officer can give chase with pistol in hand but should probably put the gun away.

Question for those who use the SCD. Does the short trigger travel and amount the SCD sticks out allow enough "reaction time" to stop holstering if a problem arises? Does thumb pressure on the SCD otherwise prevent the trigger from being pulled by a finger or other object during reholstering?

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

Yes it does, but not as positively as a hammer on a DAO/TDA. With a stock Glock trigger I found I need more accurate thumb placement and more thumb pressured to make it the same as a TDA/DAO. With an NY trigger, it was much closer to DAO/TDA.

The SCD works, and for admin handling and slow and deliberate holstering, it is going to do the job. It will likely be just fine even for speed holstering, but I would feel more comfortable with a hammer.


Again I do praise the SCD. It makes the Glock a viable option for me, and Glock should add it to every gun. It’s the best aftermarket Glock add on.


I wish Glock would make a quality and useable thumb safety.

[Tokarev]

Yes. Pressure on the SCD blocks rearward movement of the trigger. Because it prevents rearward motion of the striker and thus does not allow the "sear" (trigger bar) in a Glock to move.

It is the effectively the same as thumbing the hammer on a DA gun.

The only potential things safer than a decocked DA or Glock with SCD would be riding the hammer on a cocked and locked pistol (thus preventing the hammer from being able to hit the firing pin) or riding the hammer on a Beretta/Walther type decock safety that is in safe mode.

I understand the concept behind the SCD and the comparison to reholstering a revolver. But the average revolver has much more "reactionary gap" between trigger movement and hammer fall than a Glock. Ideally the shooter is pressing hard enough on the SCD to block the trigger from fully moving or fully being seated in the holster. Even then, how much time is there to react to "something is wrong" and stop the reholster action? Not much I wouldn't think.

Drawing and cranking off a shot before the muzzle is downrange and/or pointed at the threat is a similar issue. Both are caused by finger on trigger at incorrect moments. But the SCD would do nothing to prevent errors on presentation.





Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[olstyn]

Even then, how much time is there to react to "something is wrong" and stop the reholster action? Not much I wouldn't think.

How hard are you jamming your gun into the holster? Even if you're really slamming it in there hard/fast, "not much" is greater than zero, no?

[Duelist]

I understand the concept behind the SCD and the comparison to reholstering a revolver. But the average revolver has much more "reactionary gap" between trigger movement and hammer fall than a Glock. Ideally the shooter is pressing hard enough on the SCD to block the trigger from fully moving or fully being seated in the holster. Even then, how much time is there to react to "something is wrong" and stop the reholster action? Not much I wouldn't think.

Drawing and cranking off a shot before the muzzle is downrange and/or pointed at the threat is a similar issue. Both are caused by finger on trigger at incorrect moments. But the SCD would do nothing to prevent errors on presentation.





Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

Tok, all of my GLOCKs have an SCD. I may even have a spare in my parts drawer. If you want to check one out/do some range work with it, let me know.