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Thread: FBI agent ND while dancing

  1. #231
    Site Supporter Sensei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whomever View Post
    I haven't been following the case that closely. The Denver Post is reporting than an artery was hit. Is that erroneous?

    "The bullet hit the victim in an artery in his leg, according to previous news reports."

    https://www.denverpost.com/2018/06/1...-agent-arrest/
    I have seen 1 report that the bullet may have hit the victim’s anterior tibial artery. However, all of the other reports indicate that the patient suffered just pain / swelling and did not require surgery. Injuries to this artery often can be managed without non-operatively / do not require repair as long as there are good collaterals. It may pose a problem for the defense in the sense that prompt bleeding control was needed to prevent serious risk from exsanguination. However, this bleeding control could have been achieved with direct pressure instead of a TQ.

    Regardless, I’m still not feeling the love on a felony charge.
    I like my rifles like my women - short, light, fast, brown, and suppressed.

  2. #232
    THE THIRST MUTILATOR Nephrology's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei View Post
    I have seen 1 report that the bullet may have hit the victim’s anterior tibial artery. However, all of the other reports indicate that the patient suffered just pain / swelling and did not require surgery. Injuries to this artery often can be managed without non-operatively / do not require repair as long as there are good collaterals. It may pose a problem for the defense in the sense that prompt bleeding control was needed to prevent serious risk from exsanguination. However, this bleeding control could have been achieved with direct pressure instead of a TQ.

    Regardless, I’m still not feeling the love on a felony charge.
    Presuming it hit his anterior tib a., I assume it also would have resulted in a tib/fib fracture? Seems hard to hit the artery without hitting bone too

  3. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by GardoneVT View Post
    Not likely . Picture of said DA:

    Bruce Jenner bleaching his hair now?
    Wolves don't kill the unlucky deer.

  4. #234
    Site Supporter Sensei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nephrology View Post
    Presuming it hit his anterior tib a., I assume it also would have resulted in a tib/fib fracture? Seems hard to hit the artery without hitting bone too
    Not necessarily. He was not described as having a fracture and all of the pictures and videos show him resting his bare leg on his sofa (no splint or cast).
    I like my rifles like my women - short, light, fast, brown, and suppressed.

  5. #235
    Site Supporter Coyotesfan97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWM11B View Post
    Plenty of places dont like the police. It happened to at least three of our guys I know of. I just wrote the businesses off. Someone else will take my money. And the last thing I wanted to do is drink or eat something prepared by someone who hates me because of my job and the uniform I wore.
    I much rather know beforehand that the business or people working there are anti police. I’ve walked out of restaurants before ordering when I got bad vibes from the kitchen employees.
    Just a dog chauffeur that used to hold the dumb end of the leash.

  6. #236
    THE THIRST MUTILATOR Nephrology's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei View Post
    Not necessarily. He was not described as having a fracture and all of the pictures and videos show him resting his bare leg on his sofa (no splint or cast).
    I assume this means we can also conclude it wasn't a personally owned .45 (or his leg woulda been TORE CLEAN OFF)

  7. #237
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by underhook View Post
    Interesting thought experiment. If he had not discharged the gun when picking it up, would he have been charged with anything?
    Dropping a gun isn't illegal, so no. If nobody was hurt, the media wouldn't have cared, and then neither would anyone else.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  8. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by JRB View Post
    Also, if the victim didn't want charges filed, would that prevent the DA from filing charges in a case like this?
    It does happen. However, it carries with it some risk. As a practical matter, you want your victim to act like a victim when it comes to testimony; furthermore, every negotiation you have with opposing counsel, they're going to hold it over your head about how bad your victim is. It's not exactly fun for anybody involved to subpoena a non-cooperative victim, see them skip the court date, and use the contempt charge and subsequent arrest as a mechanism to get their testimony; if they act as what's known as a hostile witness, we're in the fun position of effectively cross-examining (leading questions to get them to agree/disagree with certain assertions with little/no explanation on their part so we're effectively testifying for them) them through their testimony, which isn't going to come across well at all. That sucks to do in front of a judge for, say, a bond revocation hearing or a VOP. It's almost suicide to do in front of a jury.

    The victim doesn't prosecute the case and we do not represent the victim individually, though in my state they have certain rights throughout the process (having the case dismissed is not one of them). Having said all of that, we also make calculations of, "is this really worth it?" and "can I prove this without their cooperation?" when they don't want to prosecute. If one or both of those questions can be answered with "no," my practice is to a) (assuming they can be found) have them fill out a waiver of prosecution affidavit saying they want the case dismissed, or b) (if they cannot be located, either because they're deliberately avoiding contact or because they've genuinely disappeared) make diligent, good faith efforts to locate them and document those efforts before settling/dismissing the case. I've done both of those things more times than I can count.

    ---

    Now, as the pitchforks have been gathered and the torches lit, I am curious if the DA's office/police investigators have information that isn't publicly available. While overcharging is certainly a thing in the criminal justice system -- and without getting into a tit-for-tat of who typically does it in my experience, and with a caveat that I don't know a thing about that particular DA's office culture/habits/track record/etc. -- it is my experience that actual overcharging (and not what a defense attorney may call overcharging) is exception rather than the rule. I will say my concern -- unlike many in this thread -- is not whether he should be convicted of a felony versus a misdemeanor (or any crime at all), but rather whether his charge is fairly supported by the law. Given that there's likely a fair bit of information that is not known at this time, my thought would be that perhaps we ought to pause those pitchforks for a moment and wait and see what else, if anything, comes out.

  9. #239
    Site Supporter Trooper224's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssb View Post
    Now, as the pitchforks have been gathered and the torches lit, I am curious if the DA's office/police investigators have information that isn't publicly available. While overcharging is certainly a thing in the criminal justice system -- and without getting into a tit-for-tat of who typically does it in my experience, and with a caveat that I don't know a thing about that particular DA's office culture/habits/track record/etc. -- it is my experience that actual overcharging (and not what a defense attorney may call overcharging) is exception rather than the rule. I will say my concern -- unlike many in this thread -- is not whether he should be convicted of a felony versus a misdemeanor (or any crime at all), but rather whether his charge is fairly supported by the law. Given that there's likely a fair bit of information that is not known at this time, my thought would be that perhaps we ought to pause those pitchforks for a moment and wait and see what else, if anything, comes out.
    Except at the federal level, here in my state overcharging is a very common practice. In my opinion, we have an almost criminal lack of oversight by the State AG's office and district and county DA's are left largely to their own devices. The "Let's make a deal so we can clear it off the ledger fast." is the order of the day. Consequently, overcharging is done as a way to intimidate the defendant into taking a plea deal on the actual appropriate charge.

    I hate to see the torches and pitchforks of the social media court fire up against this agent. Yes, the young guy made a mistake and a pretty big one, but he's paying for it with a destroyed career and an incident that will follow him far longer than anything else could. I'll hazard a guess and say that we all made pretty big mistakes when we were younger, but many of us did so without the albatross of social media around our necks. There are undoubtedly other, non-legal factors weighing in here: those in charge in all areas of life are running in fear of social media and the twitter gestapo. Colorado's largely leftist, anti-gun, California transplant culture surely thinks the sky is falling over this incident and it's another avenue for them to hate on the cops.
    Last edited by Trooper224; 06-14-2018 at 05:53 PM.
    We may lose and we may win, but we will never be here again.......

  10. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Trooper224 View Post
    Except at the federal level, here in my state overcharging is a very common practice. In my opinion, we have an almost criminal lack of oversight by the State AG's office and district and county DA's are left largely to their own devices. The "Let's make a deal so we can clear it off the ledger fast." is the order of the day. Consequently, overcharging is done as a way to intimidate the defendant into taking a plea deal on the actual appropriate charge.
    I don't know that that's as effective of a tactic as it would initially seem.

    As an example, let's say I've got a guy I'd like to put in jail because... well, he's on my shit list. Police pull him over, find two grams of meth in two one-gram bags (>.5 grams is, by statute, seen as for resale in my state) and a scale in the car and $240 in his wallet. I indict him on the B Felony intent to resell charge (depending on the officer and their experience/care, he may well be originally charged as such) rather than the A Misdemeanor simple possession charge. He technically fits the resale statute because of the amount, and the separate bags, the money, and the scale are in theory indicia of resale so I have probable cause (ethical/professional responsibility) to do it.

    The reality of that situation is that any defense attorney is going to look at that, laugh, and tell me to give them a misdemeanor or give them a trial date, because unless I get the world's most prosecution-friendly jury and the defense attorney phones it in that day, all I've got is a casual user who -- like apparently everybody who gets pulled over with drugs nowadays -- wants to make sure their dealer didn't screw them and who cashed their paycheck that afternoon. That misdemeanor plea will probably be on their terms as well unless the guy is a complete bag of shit or I've got something else up my sleeve, because I lost credibility with that indictment and they have the leverage of a right to a jury trial.

    Now, prosecution is all about leverage -- that I don't dispute at all. Likewise, I don't dispute the motivation to settle things early and often (or the reality that we do that) when we've got a couple hundred case files on our desk. There's a lot that goes into that situation, and yes, some of it is our fault. However, when it comes to pleas, I am not of the opinion -- and it absolutely hasn't been my experience -- that charging bullshit to get a solid lesser is the way to get that leverage.

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