1911s That aren't 1911s

[Jim Watson]

So is it ok to load a 3 1/2" .40 S&W "1911" with a Clip?

[JRB]

Okay we'll go Barney the Purple Dinosaur speed on this.

I regret posting my topic of the definition of a 1911.

We all make mistakes. Seems to me that you wanted to post something that would get some solidarity and affirmation among like-minded enthusiasts. Sadly it came off as an old man yelling at a cloud and trying to invent problems that didn't exist.

The world is changing. one single term no longer has a singular definition.

Nope, words still mean things - but what's commonly understood, what's defensible on a definitive level in the technical minutiae, and what YOU personally as a human being understand something to mean, well, can be three totally different things.

A 1911 can now be any size in any caliber. with any capacity, action and features. One is still left to ask, what is a 1911 pistol?

3 out of 4, there - Almost everyone agrees that a 1911 can absolutely be any caliber, capacity, and have a myriad of different features.

But almost everyone would also agree that a 1911 is *always* a specific action type; a Browning short-recoil SAO pistol with a grip safety, positive thumb safety, external hammer, barrel lugs that are swung in and out of lockup by a swinging link, and has a trigger that pulls straight back with an inimitably excellent grip angle.

All other features, to include caliber, barrel length, frame length, capacity, sights, slide profile, dust cover(railed or not) and the various width/features/stippling/serrations/finish of the frame, grip safety, firing pin safety, safety lever, stocks, hammer, trigger, magwell, etc; well that's all dependent on the specific model but it's damn sure still a 1911.
Blowback .22LR lookalikes with a fixed barrel but otherwise identical external features? Eh, if you really wanted to split hairs sure go ahead. Most folks really aren't that worried about it and would be surprised or confused that you are.

If one wanted to define the 'Original 1911' then absolutely it's a 5in Gov't model in 45ACP with a GI spec firing pin/hammer/sights/grip safety/trigger/grips/magazine etc. That'd be 100% truth, and accurate to reality.

But nobody's calling a 3.5in .40 S&W Compact 1911 an 'Original' 1911.
It is definitely still a 1911 though because it has all the features that define the design; SAO, swinging link, lugged barrel lockup, external hammer, grip safety, thumbs safety, awesome trigger, awesome grip angle.

[DDTSGM]

We don’t need a puritanical thread about nomenclatures; already have one for ammo.

Plus, this one for a shotgun: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....-1301-Tactical

Shit on a saltine, 635 pages!!

[Danko]

I've been schooled that any size and caliber auto pistol can be a 1911. For those who refer to 9mm, 10s .38s as 1911s. What makes these guns qualify as 1911s? Isn't there a definition somewhere? What is the definition of a 1911? I know the definition of a revolver. It has an easy to see, specific design. Now I don't know the meaning of a gun called a 1911. I'm learning more about pistols, but pistol terminology is wanting! Does racking an auto pistol mean chambering a round, or is the slide only racked to clear a round or malfunction. Racking a slide means chambering a round or cocking the gun, it also means clearing a round in the chamber. How does anyone know what someone is referring to when he said he racked his gun, or slide. The only way to know the answer is ask him what he means. We may know what he means if we see what he's doing.

If a guy told me he owns a 1911, I would have to ask a series of question to learn his definition of the gun.

I understand most of my rant will mean nothing to most, but hopefully I made you think a little, and thinking is good for everyone.

I'm old!

[MandoWookie]

1911s that are not 1911s, would in my opinion include guns like the Argentine Ballester Molina that fearure some aspects of the 1911 and was intended to supplement/ replace a 1911 in service. Or the Star pistols it was derived from. Which were definitely inspired by the 1911 buy are fundamentally different guns.
The Stars especially, as they are different frame sized specifically for 9mm, with no grip safety, different trigger mechanism and later I believe a HI Power locking system rather than the link system.

The Ruger P85/89/90 series of guns also use the link system, but combined with a Sig(or Webley) style ejection port lock up. They are definitely not 1911s though.

[SoCalDep]

I've been schooled that any size and caliber auto pistol can be a 1911. For those who refer to 9mm, 10s .38s as 1911s. What makes these guns qualify as 1911s? Isn't there a definition somewhere? What is the definition of a 1911? I know the definition of a revolver. It has an easy to see, specific design. Now I don't know the meaning of a gun called a 1911. I'm learning more about pistols, but pistol terminology is wanting! Does racking an auto pistol mean chambering a round, or is the slide only racked to clear a round or malfunction. Racking a slide means chambering a round or cocking the gun, it also means clearing a round in the chamber. How does anyone know what someone is referring to when he said he racked his gun, or slide. The only way to know the answer is ask him what he means. We may know what he means if we see what he's doing.

If a guy told me he owns a 1911, I would have to ask a series of question to learn his definition of the gun.

I understand most of my rant will mean nothing to most, but hopefully I made you think a little, and thinking is good for everyone.

I'm old!

Everything you said is correct. At the same time much of what you said lacks context and understanding. “Revolvers” aren’t the same, and they operate differently depending on age and brand/model. Pistols operate differently depending on age and brand/model.

John Browning designed several pistols that eventually became the 1911 and some of the features were not his choice but were mandated by military requirements. After that he worked on pistols that had other more “advanced” features but we ignore those because “two world wars” and such. If you want to worship the 1911 at least know the Christmas story...

[Joe in PNG]

I've been schooled that any size and caliber auto pistol can be a 1911. For those who refer to 9mm, 10s .38s as 1911s. What makes these guns qualify as 1911s? Isn't there a definition somewhere? What is the definition of a 1911?

See JRB's definition just a post above yours- it's pretty definitive about what features make up a 1911.

But consider another iconic, JMB designed auto pistol- the GP1935 Highpower. Is the .40 cal version suddenly not a Higpower? How about the lightweight version? Does the rare short version become a different gun?

[SW CQB 45]

Nina 1911




Kongsberg Colt is a copy of the Colt 1911
this one is stamped 1942 and sits in my office.
it does not have all the original parts - phooey
it was found in a vacant apartment and turned into the police
I saved it from being cut up. Somehow it swam from Norway to the states.

[BehindBlueI's]

I've been schooled that any size and caliber auto pistol can be a 1911. For those who refer to 9mm, 10s .38s as 1911s. What makes these guns qualify as 1911s? Isn't there a definition somewhere? What is the definition of a 1911? I know the definition of a revolver. It has an easy to see, specific design. Now I don't know the meaning of a gun called a 1911. I'm learning more about pistols, but pistol terminology is wanting! Does racking an auto pistol mean chambering a round, or is the slide only racked to clear a round or malfunction. Racking a slide means chambering a round or cocking the gun...

Re-read JRB's post a few up for the definition of a 1911.

Racking simply means cycling the slide manually, independent of outcome or intent.

[Hambo]

I understand most of my rant will mean nothing to most, but hopefully I made you think a little, and thinking is good for everyone.

I think it must have snowed early in Michigan and the cable is out.

If you want something really deep to think about, revert back to that great thinker, William Jefferson Clinton: “It depends on what the meaning of the word ‘is’ is.”