Beretta M9 failures

[JonInWA]

There are a couple of anomalies in my opinion in the quoted threads from the SF NCO; 1). Failed locking blocks are extensively discussed, but interestingly, not trigger return springs. Early TRS were noted for their estimated lifespan of only 2K rounds, until redesigned by Beretta some 10-15 years ago. 2). Individual, unit and higher echelon maintenance procedures are not extensively discussed-as Larry Vickers commented in his generally excellent article years ago on the M9, operator/unit lubrication and forecasted component replacements were essentially never performed to standard. 3). The SF NCO cites the FN HP as more durable than the M9, along with the 1911 (and unspecified HKs and 3rd generation S&W automatics). This simply doesn't track with my personal experience, or, more importantly, the collective experience of much more knowledgeable and experienced users; HP barrels have a forecasted lifespan of 12K to 15K rounds, and the rest of the gun for only about 35K-40K rounds.

Locking block failures (particularly M9 locking block failures) have been discussed extensively here and elsewhere. Essentially the 3rd Generation BERETTA locking blocks provide an estimated 20K round lifespan; first generation AND FIRST GENERATION NON-BERETTA REPLACEMENT locking blocks apparently sourced by DoD, not so much. The replacement blocks apparently have the intrinsic weakness of the 1st generation Beretta locking blocks, and then some material issues on top of that...DocGKR has discussed that on p-f. Throw inferior components into the mix of inadequate/indifferent/non-existent lubrication and maintenance, and you have a recipe for incipient disaster.

Best, Jon

[Greg]

When people cheer for a favorite weapon to be MIL adopted I think they’re nuts. They won’t be maintaining them, repair after failure is the norm.

The AK would gain a terrible reputation for reliability if we fielded it.

[Stony Lane]

Obviously, these pistols were poorly maintained and badly abused. My experience, after 10's of thousands of rounds through many 92's, is that the platform is remarkably robust and reliable.

The old Ben Stoeger "A few hundred thousand rounds later" video comes to mind:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue8_uN0OIVs

[Arbninftry]

.mil M9s are severely abused.

[Sammy1]

There are a couple of anomalies in my opinion in the quoted threads from the SF NCO; 1). Failed locking blocks are extensively discussed, but interestingly, not trigger return springs. Early TRS were noted for their estimated lifespan of only 2K rounds, until redesigned by Beretta some 10-15 years ago. 2). Individual, unit and higher echelon maintenance procedures are not extensively discussed-as Larry Vickers commented in his generally excellent article years ago on the M9, operator/unit lubrication and forecasted component replacements were essentially never performed to standard. 3). The SF NCO cites the FN HP as more durable than the M9, along with the 1911 (and unspecified HKs and 3rd generation S&W automatics). This simply doesn't track with my personal experience, or, more importantly, the collective experience of much more knowledgeable and experienced users; HP barrels have a forecasted lifespan of 12K to 15K rounds, and the rest of the gun for only about 35K-40K rounds.

Locking block failures (particularly M9 locking block failures) have been discussed extensively here and elsewhere. Essentially the 3rd Generation BERETTA locking blocks provide an estimated 20K round lifespan; first generation AND FIRST GENERATION NON-BERETTA REPLACEMENT locking blocks apparently sourced by DoD, not so much. The replacement blocks apparently have the intrinsic weakness of the 1st generation Beretta locking blocks, and then some material issues on top of that...DocGKR has discussed that on p-f. Throw inferior components into the mix of inadequate/indifferent/non-existent lubrication and maintenance, and you have a recipe for incipient disaster.

Best, Jon

Did the military get the new locking blocks or where they stuck with what was originally spec'd out. Also, I've heard horror stories about non Beretta replacement parts by third party vendors. One example is a shipment of replacement grips that were one sided.

[jetfire]

So a buddy of mine is in a unit that happens to run the arms room that several cadre units draw from for qualification purposes. Not going to get more specific than that. Anyway, one of those organizations drew eight M9s and shot about 500 rounds through each, and got some fairly catastrophic results. 6 of the pistols experienced broken slides and broken locking blocks. Here’s my observations:

1. The same 9 pistols or so are repeatedly drawn and used over and over again.

2. Can’t tell the age, but they’ve obviously seen some use.

3. Possibly an ammo issue? 6/8 weapons breaking seems high even if abused.

4. Looking at the recoil spring in one pic, it seems the same length or slightly shorter than the barrel. From what I remember of the factory B92 armorer’s course back in 2011, this would indicate very worn recoil springs that would not attenuate recoil adequately.

5. The deadlining faults as he is relaying them to me are
“1 Broken slide
1 Fracture in slide
2 Locking block broken
1 locking block cracked
1 barrel cracked (near locking block)”

6. The locking blocks (kind of hard to tell) seem to be the latest generation with the chamfer at the right angle.

I’ve asked if he can get some pics of the ammo. We’re both interested to hear any observations the collective P-F knowledge base may have.

Attachment 38713

Attachment 38714

I would be willing to bet that the pistols above hadn't had their recoil springs changed...ever. I can't speak to other service's maintenance standards, but I know that the USAF Technical Order (which is the same manual the Army uses) says that the recoil spring on the M9 is supposed to be changed when it's shorter than the barrel. Considering the factory length of the spring is about an inch longer than the barrel, you can imagine how many cycles it takes to compress an inch off that spring. It's a huge number, way more than the 3,000 round interval that Beretta recommends the spring be changed.

A lot of the M9s in inventory are going on 20-30 years old, and during their service lifetime have seen very little maintenance. I was at an AFRC shooting course a few months back where we shot 1,000 rounds each over the course of a week and we deadlined three or four guns, all of which were broken locking blocks. The bottom line is that the military's guideline for when to change the spring isn't nearly often enough, and training guns especially will get pulled out of inventory repeatedly and shot. Run that cycle for 15 years and it's no wonder guns crack in half.

[Alpha Sierra]

I seem to recall there are a number of third party replacement parts in the military system,.

Irrelevant. They all need to meet the same standards as OEM and OEMs aren't the only ones who know how to make parts to print.

[Alpha Sierra]

let alone what the chlorine does to metal?

In the absence of water, nothing.

[HCM]

Irrelevant. They all need to meet the same standards as OEM and OEMs aren't the only ones who know how to make parts to print.

They should meet the same standards, but often they don’t.

[ralph]

Now I'm begining to understand why the military went with the SIG..It's simple really, at about $200 apeice, with extras thrown in, what they have is a disposable pistol. One quits running, and they can't easily fix it, take it over the bandsaw, cut it in half, or thirds and throw it in the dumpster..Go get a new one, and send it out.. Problem solved. You don't need to keep alot of spare parts around, or train alot of armorers.. Of course I'm being snarky here, but honestly, I'm not so sure that's not what they had in mind...