Freestyle shooting at 25 yds revisited

[98z28]

I much prefer this chart.

Attachment 2314

I am not a huge fan of the real chart, but this one is going up in my office. Awesome.

Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk

[Failure2Stop]

Soooo...

Went out to zero 3 G17s:

Each with different sights: Ameriglo CAP front w/ Pro-Operator Rear (IIRC), Trijicon HD, and Dawson FO (I can give the exact widths/heights if anybody actually gives a kitten).
They were just kinda smashed in and roughly centered by my calibrated Mk 1 Mod 2 eye.

Only had some Blazer brass on hand, wanted to see what effect some different ammo would do with regard to group shift, so I hit Walmart on the way:


Grabbed the cheapest ammo (Perfecta), and headed to the 7 to quickly see if anything was wildly off.

I was happy to see that everything was close enough to POA to head back to the 25 yard line (measured with my accurate-enough for .gov work stride).

I started by shooting at B8 type targets, at a decent pace:

If you want to watch the video, click here:
http://s296.photobucket.com/user/Fai...41501.mp4.html
Don't worry; it's fast, no talking. It is also pretty boring. Sorry.

Not the pace I would recommend for someone trying to get the utmost precision, but it's the pace I feel comfortable slowing down to while still being "fast".

Shot with G17, stock except for Dawson sights and a magwell (I wanted to look cool for the video).

The Dawsons and Ameriglos needed no adjustment for deflection correction.
The only sights that I beat on were the Trijicon HDs, which were initially too far right, which I conveniently over-corrected:

Yup, called the wild one on shot 5, I was getting bored by that string.

I was seeing more lateral deviation (my fault, not the guns), as everything but the CAPs shot high, which I generally do not choose for pistol POI (when I actually have a choice).

So, I went to 3x5 cards, oriented vertically. Holding on the bottom edge gave a good read on lateral deviation, and I really wasn't too concerned if I wasn't perfect on vertical dispersion since I can't correct that on the range. The below were all shot with the same G17, wearing Dawson FO sights, at 25ish yards, with a bottom-edge hold:

Ammo was PPU, Fed Red Box, and Perfecta, all 115 gr.
The PPU group has a shot in the top-right corner that was not part of that string, but rather from the string immediately proceeding it, before I really believed myself that I needed a no-kittening 6:00 hold. There is a double-strike in the center, evidenced by the darker grease-ring. I'll give closer pics if anyone wants to to be a dick. Of course, I could be lying about the top right shot, but it would still be decent enough for the purpose of this. Believe what you want; fight the power.

The PPU and Perfecta shot like that for just about every group (more on that in a second). I could not get the Blaser to put 5 shots on a card with that G17 within 15 rounds and decided that I would rather retain the ammo for close-range blaster practice than frustrate myself at 25 with it.

Here are the positions of the sights after the 25 yard work:

Dawson:


Ameriglo (Pro Operator rear I think)


Triji HD:


The positions shown provide nearly identical POI at 25 with the ammo shown.

So, while the groups aren't going to make any dedicated bullseye shooter amorous, they are sufficient to meet my needs.
No heavy right-side correction, but nothing left of center either.

Here's the kicker (or, if you are astute, here's the validation of your accusations in a sample size of one guy that hasn't done much pistol work in over a year):

I was able to enlarge my groups and shift them distinctly left (I am a right-handed shooter if I have the option) by using less trigger finger.
I have observed this in myself for a while, which prompted me to change my trigger finger placement to be more aggressive (almost the first joint).
There is no shortage of guys that are good with the Grock that do not agree with my trigger finger placement. I'm not saying that they are wrong, simply that their hands/fingers are not mine, and I can pull off decent enough precision with what I am doing at a pace that I believe to be relevant. It is not the trigger finger placement that I would recommend for a 1911, or some other pistols, but for me, with Glocks, it's good.

After getting happy with the POI of the guns dragged out into the rain (there might have been more pictures if it hadn't been intermittently raining, and had I brought more than 4 target refaces..) I did some moderate speed work on a plate rack at ~24yds and transitioned immediately to a vertical 5x8 card for the remainder of the magazine. Every time I got a sloppy hand-position and landed mid to tip of trigger finger my groups would be biased left on the 5x8. Of course, similar result when I went too fast on trigger even with my preferred finger placement.

I still need to see how better ammo stacks up against the ammo I used, frankly, I didn't want to shoot up my defensive ammo before I got my annual replacement, and I can't find 124gr S&B anywhere for a polite price.

Well, that's about it:
Crappy ammo shot better than I thought it should free-style.
Minimal right shift on sights (as usual for me), but pretty much no right-correction on Dawsons (I might measure the gaps; but don't hold your breath unless you're a good friend and I missed a recent event).
Bulk Fed still sucks.
I get off-side lateral shift with less than aggressive trigger finger placement.

YMMV, here's a pic of the best dog in the world:

[JHC]

Your examples of the degree of rear sights biased to the right are consistent with what we have on some guns that need it (as mentioned earlier, some of them are centered). I've never seen one that needed to be all the way out to the right edge of the slide. Just "a skosh" with some of them. In our case it may be the same type of sights however ie one set of HDs centered on one gun, another set of HDs a skosh right on another. I've replaced sights on a "dress right" gun and different brand also needed said skosh.

Great report.

[breakingtime91]

F2S, that pup is gonna be huge! Idk what it is with former marines, we tend to have have German shepherds, I have two and will never live without one again.

[MDS]

We were shooting an Accelerator drill today at 11, 16 and 26 yards, and I asked my wife to shoot a quick 5 shot group at 26 yards with her Glock 34 and Aguilla ammo. Pace was one shot every 1-2 seconds.

GJM married that girl you were all talking about....

[ASH556]

Great post, F2S! Thanks for taking the time. I'll be sure to check/work on trigger finger placement next time I'm out.

[EMC]

I second the praise of F2S post. Very educational. Now I know it's not all me on having to bump rear sights slightly.

Same goes for deep trigger finger placement for me.

[breakingtime91]

Hey ash, does this make you rethink your experience with the MP? Just curious as I remember you ditching it for it's lack of accuracy at 25..

[ASH556]

Hey ash, does this make you rethink your experience with the MP? Just curious as I remember you ditching it for it's lack of accuracy at 25..

No. I had a pair that I bought new at the same time. One was fine, the other wasn't. I sent the "bad" one back to the factory 3 times with no results. I'll let the pics tell the story:

Good pistol on the left, bad on the right, POA was the #7. This was after the second trip back to the factory:

Untitled by ASH556, on Flickr

Same thing after the third and final trip back to S&W:

Untitled by ASH556, on Flickr

[breakingtime91]

Kind of looks like the same pattern as the glock? I'm not doubting some MPs have problems (it's well documented) but I'm starting to think there might be more then hardware problems in some cases.