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Thread: Doubts about 9mm

  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Lost River View Post
    I may know a fellow Idahoan and Brother .44 Associate who thinks the N Frame can be a good thing at times!







    But that may be for another thread, another time.


    Back to our regularly scheduled DERP.
    What's the best place to target on those bear targets with a handgun?
    A man with an experience, is not a slave to a man with an opinion.
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  2. #202
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  3. #203
    Whatever the difference is between 9mm and another cartridge, I know there is a lot greater difference between armed and unarmed, and competent and incompetent in skill of arms.

    LR, great Hackathorn pictures!
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.
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  4. #204
    Ken is a stud.

    I truly enjoy hanging out with him and our little crew, though I don't take a lot of pics (I need to get better about that). He is a virtual walking encyclopedia of knowledge, and his bride is an awesome cook (and a truly sweet lady). Somebody always has something fun or interesting for "adult show and tell", and there are usually stories from BTDT guys, so it is a grand time. This last time I was about to have back surgery, so I was mostly just hanging out, socializing with questionable characters, which as I get older, I find to be the best part of these little gatherings.

    Ken is a class act. I know I have said it before here, but my reasons for thinking so highly of him, have very little to do with shooting. He treats people of all stripes like he is greeting an old friend, as long as they conduct themselves in a honorable manner. He could care less if you are a ditch digger for a mining company, or a Delta. That says a lot about him.

    Conduct is best proof of Character.
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  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by DocGKR View Post
    Yup and a good deep penetrating shotgun slug works even better....
    So is it true that against humans, 9mm, .40, and .45 all have roughly similar effectiveness at incapacitating people?

    I've seen some say that OIS incident reports compiled over the last couple of decades have shown no difference in effectiveness at incapacitating people between the 3 major service calibers.
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  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlorifiedMailman View Post
    So is it true that against humans, 9mm, .40, and .45 all have roughly similar effectiveness at incapacitating people?

    I've seen some say that OIS incident reports compiled over the last couple of decades have shown no difference in effectiveness at incapacitating people between the 3 major service calibers.
    1) A medical examiner once told me that he couldn’t definitively tell what handgun caliber caused a particular wound. At the time I was observing autopsies with multiple victims shot with multiple handguns in a single incident. Drug related spat solved when one side divided up a trunk full of handguns and assaulted the competition’s house. In the dozen or so shooting death autopsies I observed over the years I never saw a reason to doubt him.

    2) One of the take aways from the wounding study published after the FBI Miami shooting was that handguns usually damage about a pounds worth of tissue.

    Personally, I don’t completely trust my 10mm to stop everything every time with one random hit. I know 9mm or .32 or .38 or .40 or whatever reasonable caliber will eventually stop an opponent if you put enough leaks in enough critical infrastructure. That’s why we practice and have a plan.
    Last edited by Rick R; 11-29-2019 at 12:41 AM.
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  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Robinson View Post
    There's nothing wrong with .40 and .45, and using it because you like a pistol that shoots one or the other is a valid reason. I don't carry a 1911 because it's a .45, I carry .45 because I think it's the best cartridge for my 1911s even after seriously experimenting with 9mm 1911s multiple times.

    But there's probably not much reason to doubt the effectiveness of quality defensive 9mm ammunition compared to the larger calibers at this point.

    This.

    I always tell people to pick a gun they like and will carry, and get the gun in the caliber it works best with.
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  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by GlorifiedMailman View Post
    So is it true that against humans, 9mm, .40, and .45 all have roughly similar effectiveness at incapacitating people?

    I've seen some say that OIS incident reports compiled over the last couple of decades have shown no difference in effectiveness at incapacitating people between the 3 major service calibers.
    From my observations over the years, you have chaos on top of chaos, with a little chaos on the side. The minute you think you have found a pattern, you run into OISs that completely change you way of thinking.

    One thing we can definitively correlate to the success of shootings is shot placement, followed by using a regular service caliber, followed by using a quality modern JHP. These 3 elements seem to be a good working combination which has been confirmed by the credible research done over the last few decades. If you're trying to find a measurable difference in the success rate of OISs as it relates to caliber, you'll be hard pressed to find it. Either you hit an important area of the body with a well constructed bullet, or you don't and it can take a very long time for the bad guy to become incapacitated.
    A man with an experience, is not a slave to a man with an opinion.
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  9. #209
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlorifiedMailman View Post
    So is it true that against humans, 9mm, .40, and .45 all have roughly similar effectiveness at incapacitating people?
    Many departments/agencies/units have made the switch one way or another between them. Zero have reported any statistical difference in outcomes. You've controlled for every other variable. It's the same officers (so same level of training, experience, etc.) patrolling the same area in the same way they were before, only the cartridges are different. If one were measurably better than the other we'd have those measurements by this point. We see no trend of higher officer survival rates, etc. with the larger calibers. The switch to 9mm has often been touted as improving range scores, but I've yet to see anyone claiming it's improved the percentage of wins at OIS. This is largely because who wins and loses gunfights isn't predicted by range scores (see various NYPD and others studies) because range scores historically are not measuring the right things, or rather are measuring one sliver of the right things. I'm not saying it's not better to be a better shot. I'm saying that a lot of losses occur for reasons that have nothing to do with shooting. Range scores don't measure aggressiveness, tactics, situational awareness, etc. A range score won't tell you who can see trouble coming earlier, who will see the need to use deadly force first, who will hesitate and who won't, etc. Those things generally matter a lot more than the tiny differences in duty calibers at this point.

    Pick one, get good with it, learn all the other stuff that separates winners from losers.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.
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  10. #210
    Site Supporter Trooper224's Avatar
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    To paraphrase the late Pat Rogers, "They all work pretty well, if you can shoot."

    I know that doesn't make for a lengthy discussion that will run for over two hundred posts, but that's all you really need to know.

    I'm as susceptible as the next guy. I was in the, "it better start with four or at least end with magnum" camp for many years. At heart I'll always be a big bore guy, I like big guns that shoot big bullets. The other day, I had a lot of fun with my S&W 4506, but that was just for fun. I'm old enough and experienced enough to realize that it's really about the software and I willingly carry a 9mm for EDC, on rare occasion even a .380! Shhhhhhh...........
    Last edited by Trooper224; 12-01-2019 at 05:18 PM.
    We may lose and we may win, but we will never be here again.......
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