Raw speed

[GJM]

@GJM this is an interesting topic. Is this the shooting you're talking about in Anchorage.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.adn...tType=amp-type

Eta:

Updated story from above https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.was...8dc_story.html

Looks like two of the folks killed went to investigate a fight and shots fired with poor situational awareness and got ambushed.

That is the one with three fatals. The shop owner was carrying, the bad guy was carrying, and the bad guy killed the owner and two others.

[BehindBlueI's]

So, if the discussion is draw speed and hits on target quickly - besides lots of practice, cat like reflexes, and perfect situational awareness - what pistol system facilitates this need for speed and hits? TDA, Striker without safety, Striker with safety, or 1911 style?

Example - I struggle with TDA first shot speed. I am drinking the PX4 coolaid but I am measurably slower draw and hit with PX4 first shot DA versus my M&P 1.0 9mm FS or 1911 SA RO 9mm.

In both training and in real situations, the manual safety has been the biggest impediment from what I've seen. Of course it can be trained out of, but most underestimate the amount of practice it actually takes. Getting to 80% is fairly easy, getting to 100% is rough. Especially if you consider fighting injured, fighting while entangled, etc.

[Caballoflaco]

I don't want this discussion to fall into the common internet trap, of turning this into speed vs accuracy, or speed versus thoughtful tactics choice"

In Anchorage just in September, there were multiple murders in stores, where either the speed of the perpetrator, or depending on your point of view the lack of speed by the four victims, resulted in their untimely deaths. I have never seen statistics, which does not mean they don't exist, of what percentage of armed police officers and civilians, are killed due to lack of raw speed. My gut, though, says raw speed plays a big part in the outcome of conflicts where both parties are armed. It also plays a big part in the outcome of conflicts with unarmed, big, dark furry things.

I think without seeing videos of the shootings we'll never know if it was lack of speed, or awareness or a bit of un-digested potatoe that led to those folks being killed. I'm not saying that we shouldn't push our training, and I have been enjoying the discussion. I'm just trying to make sense of the context of the discussion,.

Was this guy too slow drawing, or would he be dead no matter how fast his reactions were?


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=An3suM8SZpU

To not derail the thread completely I think we should work on being as fast and accurate as we personally can (and I like your goal of a 1 second draw and shot from concealment) but I won't get lost in thinking pure technical skills are all it takes, or even the most important part of an armed civilian surviving random violence.

[GJM]

I think without seeing videos of the shootings we'll never know if it was lack of speed, or awareness or a bit of un-digested potatoe that led to those folks being killed. I'm not saying that we shouldn't push our training, and I have been enjoying the discussion. I'm just trying to make sense of the context of the discussion,.

Was this guy too slow drawing, or would he be dead no matter how fast his reactions were?


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=An3suM8SZpU

To not derail the thread completely I think we should work on being as fast and accurate as we personally can (and I like your goal of a 1 second draw and shot from concealment) but I won't get lost in thinking pure technical skills are all it takes, or even the most important part of an armed civilian surviving random violence.

Who said pure technical skills are all it takes. This is the false choice that so often rears its head in these discussions. I have continually specified throughout this thread, we should work all our skills -- manipulations, accuracy, SA, tactics and speed.

I have the benefit of some local knowledge, with a friend in that shop just days before. It is clear that on that day, despite being armed, the owner was not fast enough, and paid the ultimate price for that. Two others died as well.

The irony, is of all the skills, raw speed may be the easiest to acquire, assuming someone is willing to put in the work with dry fire.

[YVK]

Pure speculation, but just as the "average person" supposedly can fire .25 splits at close range, I guesstimate that the average person draws in the 1.50-1.75 range.

They can pull a trigger that fast, the way I understood the subject, not the same as firing splits. I also don't think they can draw that fast. I am not sure their draw time is relevant, I'd expect a worst possible scenario, they already have a gun out. Either way the faster we are and the sooner we can take the "proximity negates skill" out of equation, the better.

So, if the discussion is draw speed and hits on target quickly - besides lots of practice, cat like reflexes, and perfect situational awareness - what pistol system facilitates this need for speed and hits? TDA, Striker without safety, Striker with safety, or 1911 style?

Example - I struggle with TDA first shot speed. I am drinking the PX4 coolaid but I am measurably slower draw and hit with PX4 first shot DA versus my M&P 1.0 9mm FS or 1911 SA RO 9mm.

The trigger alone doesn't decide it. If we're talking the trigger, then lightest and shortest, in that order, and short doesn't matter that much. My fastest draws so far were with LEM. That said, grip ergos play out huge for me. It takes me a little longer to get a firing grip that I want on P30 than some other guns. My absolutely fastest time of getting a consistent grip and getting gun out on target were with a SIG 228. Slightly longer time that it took me to work the DA trigger ended up being washed out by a faster presentation.
Ultimately, whatever works for you the best. For me, they are all about the same, for different reasons described above.

[holmes168]

Going back to early Army days- we were taught to aim center mass due to the size of the target increasing the odds of getting a hit. Then again- this was with M-4 and not a pistol.
With a pistol- I can see the distinct advantage of hitting the CNS area initially, but it is still a smaller harder to hit target than center mass.
Definitely a lot to think about and implement into training plans. I'm just know at the point of Bill Drills at 4.0 seconds, so plenty more to study and drill.

[GJM]

They can pull a trigger that fast, the way I understood the subject, not the same as firing splits. I also don't think they can draw that fast. I am not sure their draw time is relevant, I'd expect a worst possible scenario, they already have a gun out. Either way the faster we are and the sooner we can take the "proximity negates skill" out of equation, the better.



The trigger alone doesn't decide it. If we're talking the trigger, then lightest and shortest, in that order, and short doesn't matter that much. My fastest draws so far were with LEM. That said, grip ergos play out huge for me. It takes me a little longer to get a firing grip that I want on P30 than some other guns. My absolutely fastest time of getting a consistent grip and getting gun out on target were with a SIG 228. Slightly longer time that it took me to work the DA trigger ended up being washed out by a faster presentation.
Ultimately, whatever works for you the best. For me, they are all about the same, for different reasons described above.

Here is some data from the young man I shot with a few days ago. He was carrying a G4 G20 in a Raven style OWB holster, shooting regular 10mm ball. He had not shot all summer. I consider him decent by American standards, but he would be unlikely to get any pin in a Gabe White class. Two to the head, and two to the body/one head were taking him 2.5-2.75 seconds, with most but not 100 percent hits to the lower A or upper head area.

Grip size and shape means more to me than trigger in drawing fast.

[Caballoflaco]

Who said pure technical skills are all it takes. This is the false choice that so often rears its head in these discussions. I have continually specified throughout this thread, we should work all our skills -- manipulations, accuracy, SA, tactics and speed.

I have the benefit of some local knowledge, with a friend in that shop just days before. It is clear that on that day, despite being armed, the owner was not fast enough, and paid the ultimate price for that. Two others died as well.

The irony, is of all the skills, raw speed may be the easiest to acquire, assuming someone is willing to put in the work with dry fire.

I can't disagree with anything you wrote and the "all it takes" was more of a reminder to myself and not "casting aspersions from the mountain" as it were.

One thing that has always bothered me is in the defensive shooting world the standard is practicing to react to an audio que when the reality is we'll most likely be reacting to visual stimuli. I think there is training value lost or wasted there.

[octagon]

Agreed -- very refreshing to have a interesting software discussion without butt hurt.

I had taken as gospel that the combination of solid manipulations, great accuracy and reasonable speed was the 99 percent solution, and that extreme speed was mostly germane to gaming. The murders in Anchorage and my recent square range shooting experience with that young man, made me question my belief on the modest speed part, especially at engagement distances inside ten yards where marksmanship proficiency is diminished by proximity.

Pure speculation, but just as the "average person" supposedly can fire .25 splits at close range, I guesstimate that the average person draws in the 1.50-1.75 range. With all the caveats about maintaining situational awareness, great tactics, etc, if you can draw and fire two to three accurate shots in less than 1.50, it would seem to be a meaningful advantage. I am not sure that the work it takes to get a concealed draw well below one second pencils, but the ability to make a one second draw and two accurate .25 splits seems time well spent.

Hey wait a second. I was butthurt when JHC had to have his own view and it didn't coincide perfectly with mine.

Lots of good points on speed,accuracy,tactics and awareness being covered well. The speed of response and what the response is in a gunfight/shooting will always be a factor. How much it means is dependent on multiple factors too. I hate to quote Jon at ASP again but he has a point that you have to wait your turn(or help create it). In most cases the badguy sets the time and place to attack and that that is to his advantage. A lot of times that means gun in hand,attack in a transitional space and goodguys being behind the curve. In a lot of these if the badguy wanted to kill as their primary intent there would likely be a lot more murders and gunshots to goodguys. Thank God these badguys have crap guns or fake ones and aren't just out to murder first and take stuff second.

[GJM]

Here is more detail on the Anchorage murders:

https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/crim...omicide-named/

Here is info on the bad guy:

According to a U.S. Army spokesman, Pisano was a paratrooper at Joint Base Elmendorf-Richardson in Anchorage until July 31.

He served with the 4th Brigade Combat Team (Airborne), 25th Infantry Division, said John Pennell, the Army spokesman.

Pennell said he did not know any more about Pisano's military service Wednesday. Since Pisano was no longer an active member of the military, his records were not immediately available, Pennell said.

According to public records, the owner of H&G Tactical Solutions LLC in Anchorage was listed as a 43-year-old Anthony Michael Pisano — the same name and age as the accused. The Anchorage business provides firearms instruction and tactical training at a private training complex in Anchorage, according to business records.

The business's Facebook page Wednesday morning featured multiple photos of tactical weapons and people doing target training. The page was taken down by the evening.