I could start a new thread but I think this fits here. The Thai Clinch doesn’t work either. I haven’t rolled much over the last year because of a back issue. I went to class Monday and there are several new guys now. I swear everyone in class wants to default to standing Thai Clinch for control. I guess I need to buy a trainer pointy stabby thing and put an end to it.
“If you know the way broadly you will see it in everything." - Miyamoto Musashi
By Thai clinch - I assume you're saying starting with a double collar tie?Originally Posted by MGW
The single collar tie used to deliver a couple of accurate head shots can pretty effective as a fight ender...
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I don't disagree with you but, if they are already standing and he does a single or double collar tie, does he even see the scissors come into play?
“If you know the way broadly you will see it in everything." - Miyamoto Musashi
I saw a video interview with the ONE FC owner where he mentioned it was a catastrophic injury similar to a motorcycle wreck. All ligaments torn and meniscus and broken ankle. Lower leg is basically free from thigh, muscles only left. Full leg cast. Ouch!
I would imagine you could basically walk away from this guy and he wouldn’t be able to catch you.
I agree with 45dotACP reference the escalation of use of force and bodily damage but everything is so situational and contextual. In some states choking someone unconscious elevates it to felony assault. Intent, training, experience, and perception may all play a role in the aftermath.
My beat mate basically got in boxing match with a multiple time felon who he on-viewed attempting to commit a GLA. (Long story short lots of mistakes were made etc,etc). Basically my buddy thought he was doing OK until he got knocked out. Shitbird tried to take his gun but the retention holster and a random vagrant stopped him.
I took Cecils class a few years ago and it was a good practical way to kind of work though(think through) the force escalations (or perhaps more importantly non-escalation). It is one of the main things i brought back to my own training ie Not knowing if the training partner has any weapons and making sure they frequently don’t and vice verca.
Also good practice to talk through some of the training rounds after. Can you explain why you shot your training partner when he was unarmed? Did he know you had a gun this round? Was he actually trying to get away from you but couldn't get out from under you? Both persons intentions and perceptions? Etc.
I would love to take ECQC just to hear the lecture and thoughts on this part of it.
I agree, that he didn't need to stand up and put the guy in the clinch, for compliance or anything else.
I am more thinking of going for a tie up and delivering two quick, accurate, power shots to the face ended the encounter. His justification for doing so, once those scissors is out, is really firm. Though, once a guy stands, postures, grooms, starts digging in his pockets and gives you all sorts of pre-assault cues my fight or flight plans are in motion.
FWIW and a bit of a non-sequitur - this is why I advise and prefer standing on public transit. When 75% of the people are sitting, you get a distinct height advantage by standing. You also have a mobility advantage. I've probably thought about this more than your average bear due to 1) Riding public transit in Chicago. 2) Having narrowly avoided getting into a full blown fight on a moving train in Germany once.
To the thread's topic, I was thinking about joint locks vs chokes in a self defense context recently and I thought of Tony Ferguson.
3 of Tony's last 4 fights:
1. Charles Oliveira armbars Tony and breaks his arm. Tony somehow finishes the fight to lose a decision.
2. Beneil Dariush heelhooks Tony and royally messes up his knee. Tony somehow finishes the fight to lose a decision.
3. Nate Diaz guillotines Tony. Tony taps.
It doesn't matter how tough someone is if their brain shuts off.
It sort of makes me think of a different fight at ONE FC. The mixed rules bout between Muay Thai phenom Rodtang and MMA GOAT Demetrious Johnson ended in the 2nd round with a "technical submission" meaning Rodtang was literally put to sleep by strangle...there was no tap. Mighty Mouse put the choke on and Rodtang went out on his shield.
I don't know if he's been knocked out ever, but that dude has a chin like a firehardened walnut and very clearly, he was never going to tap. To anything.
That's why I'm a fan of strangles for self defense. Yeah you could try to hold him down, you could try to stand and trade with him....but trading with him would be like punching a brick wall that punches back, and trying to hold him down would be exhausting. But put a strangle on a Muay Thai world champ, and he's just another human. He goes to sleep all the same.
The only way to get to the strangle is by being the one to control where the fight goes and where it stays (wrestling). But all of that, to me, is a delivery system for gettin that neck.
Now theoretically, BJJ should have the same takedowns as wrestling or Judo, so I guess if you're doing BJJ that way, that's not a problem. But most BJJ guys don't practice takedowns nearly enough (myself included) and many look for guard pulls.
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Was just icing my sore ankle and thinking about this. This morning I'm rolling with my buddy. And I gave up, rather easily, a kimura. One I am still figuring out how to defend that. But even still I really wasn't thinking about defending it. Instead, what I was thinking about was he wasn't applying enough downward pressure on my hips. Which let me hip lift him to the ceiling as a check on him. Then I was thinking how he is two-on-oneing my left arm and applying some pressure, but not enough to stop me. I found myself thinking if I had a knife, I could have stitched him up his left side like a sewing machine. He finally dropped in enough weight to the kimura I tapped. But it took a moment and I had plenty of time to think about it. The challenge of course is in the jits gym we aren't stabbing each other. So, I have to try to adjust my mindset a bit from viewing wrestling and jits as basically being: contact weapon delivery and escape systems to martial arts.
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In Roll #2 I'm against a brown belt. He breaks my guard and I try to hip escape away, but in doing so give up side control and my collar. Boom his hip is in my diaphragm and my collar goes tight. Next thing I know I'm tapping because there seems to be a lack of blood flow to my brain. I had almost no time to think much except, "Ahh man, I fucked up."
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Funny that no oxygen/blood thing really seems to shorten your thinking time re: the problem at hand.
Of course, you have to take some of that with a grain of salt -- good enough control on a kimura or americana to cleanly finish a training partner is very different from "grab this and rip it as hard as you can." Had a friend get his arm broken at competition learning the difference -- he was getting ready to tap even when the guy just ripped it.
Agree 100% on control, pressure, and chokes, though. My favorite moves are the ones that combine all three.
Yeeesh...there's a pretty big reason I don't compete a lot.
It's always ADCC to someone, and you never know if you just drew the 35 year old purple belt who is on TRT and will happily explode your shoulder for a 5 dollar medal.
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