Uvalde intensifies doubts over whether tiny police agencies make sense - Wash Post

[ssb]

Boy, I'd hate to see you actually take sides.

Because of the way you responded, I can’t quote you quoting my quote. But:

1) Our “small” departments may have three guys on shift at any given time. The biggest one in my half of the district, in the city where I work, has three six-person shifts when they’re at full staffing (they haven’t been for a while), plus another four detectives. The Sheriff’s Offices tend to be larger. The department with the six-year captain I mentioned has nine on patrol including the sergeant, him, the chief, and I believe three or four reserves.
2) Cost of living is absolutely lower around here, that’s true, and that helps these people. It’s really still not enough - particularly for what they’re expected to do. I won’t say most, but many officers seem to have side gigs. As an example, a group of detectives has a lawncare business with a funny name that makes them far more than their salaries do.
3) I do think the smaller agency guys get to do things bigger agency guys don’t get to do, sooner in their careers, simply out of necessity. I see that in my own career - we’re a smaller office, and so I was assigned the sort of work that my peers in bigger jurisdictions wouldn’t be touching for years. And that’s a tangible benefit. Another perspective on that is that some of those smaller departments have derisively been referred to as field training departments for that reason, and many officers’ employment there lasts about that long.
4) I guess the point I was making - not well - about the biggest budget item/not getting the cops you’re paying for thing is that while these folks seem woefully underfunded, is throwing money at the problem really the solution? The six-year captain department does a hell of a job with what they’ve got, but if they need more, they’re leaning on the county to help out or, if it’s an appropriate problem, our state-level investigative agency. I don’t have the answer there.

I have a lot of bitches about the small town police departments as should be obvious. Don’t take that as me wanting the State to come in with the (state) State Police, or even the county Sheriff to take over, because I actually don’t (there is state involvement I’d like to see, but it’s on the training/professionalization side). At the end of the day it’s the quality of the officer that makes the difference, as you said, and for the most part I’m dealing with motivated people who live in and care about the communities they police, despite the disadvantages they face.

[TC215]

if it’s an appropriate problem, our state-level investigative agency. I don’t have the answer there.

…which exists primarily because a small sheriff’s office screwed up a homicide case.

[Rex G]

Here’s the thing:

More than enough badges showed up at Uvalde to deal with that problem.

The problem wasn’t the size or scope of the agencies involved.

Quoted, for truth. A mere “Like” seemed insufficient.

[Vista461]

In Orange County CA, where I'm from and still have family, many of the smaller municipalities have gotten rid of their PDs and contracted with the OCSO to provide police service. The patrol cars are marked as both OCSO and with the name of the community to which they're assigned, e.g. San Clemente, Dana Point, etc. It seems to have worked out reasonably well.

They have that in the county I work in too. Seems good until the contract deputy gets pulled to another area leaving them uncovered.

There are many times where they have one deputy covering the entire south side of our county. So we end up mutual aided to cover for them and we’re small. I try to tell our board that, and it’s in one ear and out the other. Because “nothing happens here”, yeah because they don’t open their eyes.

[Borderland]

Pretty much everybody not LE-involved in CA regards CHP's primary reason for existence being randomized tax collection. If there's a crash, they'll come around and document it, but get back to writing tickets ASAP. When CHP came to Texas, we got Acevedo.




I've recently realized that a really big chunk of what's going on politically on the right happens in churches, not in media (social or otherwise). A lot of it may make the worst of Fox news seem completely rational. If you aren't in the churches, it's almost completely opaque.

TX has some pretty big churches. By that I mean they have congregations that number in the tens of thousands. The majority of my kin were born and raised there. I was born there and moved away when I was 10. Both of my parents belonged to the Baptist church. The Southern Baptist church in Plano has a membership of 45K. Almost every small town in TX has a Baptist church. It's a bit like every small town in Utah has a Mormon church and most of the folks that live there belong to it. I drove thru a very small town in NV (Caliente) which is very close to UT and the most expensive structure in town was a Mormon church. I doubt a sheriff in TX could get elected if he didn't belong to the Baptist church and didn't glad hand the congregation at the door every Sunday. It's how they roll there.

[Lon]

Here’s the thing:

More than enough badges showed up at Uvalde to deal with that problem.

The problem wasn’t the size or scope of the agencies involved.

So much truth here. Corporal Justin Garner was from one such small agency and proved that. On THAT day, he cowboyed the fuck up and took care of business. My understanding is that he had no formal AS training, but I can’t swear to that.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cart..._home_shooting

[DDTSGM]

I was tongue-in-cheek with my last statement. I get kind of aggravated, though, when everyone seems to think bigger is better. As in 'big city departments/officers are better' of 'Feds are better' or 'State guys are better.' Not always true, not always false.

I guess the point I was making - not well - about the biggest budget item/not getting the cops you’re paying for thing is that while these folks seem woefully underfunded, is throwing money at the problem really the solution? The six-year captain department does a hell of a job with what they’ve got, but if they need more, they’re leaning on the county to help out or, if it’s an appropriate problem, our state-level investigative agency. I don’t have the answer there.

RE: throwing money at the problem. In many cases, as has already been mentioned, the city/village/whatever, wants to maintain its own identity, and probably, truth be known, control. Eventually, as recent history has shown, citizens get the law enforcement they desire. That isn't always optimal.

In our area multi-jurisdictional tac teams are fairly common, it's a lot easier to send one or two guys to two days of training each month than a whole team. When you have towns with small departments within ten miles of each other, they tend to help each other out. Back in the day I sent the officer on our eastern most beat to back up the single officer on duty overnight in the small town 10 miles to the east for just about any call that needed back up. We were generally quicker getting there than the SO (at the time).

The problem is that even when two agencies work together pretty well, a change in administration - new Chief, new Sheriff - can screw things up.

(there is state involvement I’d like to see, but it’s on the training/professionalization side).

That was my hope for our state. It's been a mixed bag. I had hoped to end my career at our state's 'POST' validating and approving in-service training classes. Despite the example of the EMS and Nursing folks, they didn't go that way, instead if the agency head signs off on it, it's good to go. I've seen some pretty lame training under that methodology and had hoped it would change. Obviously, the powers that be didn't share my vision.

[Borderland]

Where many counties and most provinces have contracted out policing to a national force, it isn't all that, and frankly, many wish they hadn't.

Which would you prefer, a force that is accountable to local government, or a force that is unaccountable to anyone?

<https://www.nighttimepodcast.com/nova-scotia-rampage>

I'll go with this. We had a sheriff here that never carried a firearm. He was in the Cascade Mall when 5 people were killed by a terrorist. He ran away like everyone else. He retired instead of running again. We got the next guy in the command chain (I voted for him) but he hasn't done anything to help me where I live, most notably, traffic control. I can go to my mail box and watch people driving 15 over by the dozens. I sent the sheriff several emails and he did nothing. We just had an election and I got the chance to vote for someone else. If the new guy gets elected and doesn't do anything I'll cast my ballot for a new sheriff again. If nothing else I feel a little better about it.

In the city you get to vote for a mayor. Here we vote for the county sheriff.

[LockedBreech]

None of these solutions matter if you keep losing viable to excellent officers worn out from the BS of this culture and replace them with flaccid, trepid husks that will run and hide when trouble shows up.

This rings true to me. I have not served in law enforcement but my grandpa, dad, and brother did/do and my mom was a dispatcher. I also worked with law enforcement closely for most of a decade prosecuting. Doesn't make me a cop but does give me some insights. I came to get a pretty decent gut feel for officers who could be counted on in the real shit and officers who were basically other paper-pushers with a different work dress code.

Without giving too much detail, my brother's OIS was a fairly direct example of this. My brother is pretty dialed in I believe, and his backup officer is a guy I know well who is very much a professional police officer and who trains frequently. He and my brother directly and properly addressed the threat. The other backup officer, who ended up being dismissed from the department, did not take the report of an armed person seriously. He not only gave badly incorrect call-outs on scene (saying the suspect was not armed when he definitely did turn out to be armed) when it came time to shoot my brother and his backup discharged their weapons. Mr. "there's no weapon" didn't - oh, he tried, but he had his safety on and no round chambered in his rifle because he hadn't taken the threat seriously. He was a "flaccid, tepid husk" as you put it - he looked good on paper, young and eager, but he had no stomach for the work when it counted. If his lack of professionalism had cost my brother his life he'd have had a lot more to worry about than getting fired, but fortunately we didn't get there.

There was another officer I worked with years ago who had zero command presence, fumbled with everything on his tool belt, had no people skills, and I mentioned it offhand to a good officer on his department once. The officer deadpanned back that he would rather go to an active shooter call alone than with that guy as backup. The officers know who these guys are.

Big agency, little agency, doesn't really matter in my opinion. There are "flaccid, tepid" big agencies and dialed-in professional small agencies. What agencies need is the ability to dispense of shitty cops without the mire of politics and to hire cops who will do the job as it needs to be done. While generally the media equates a cop capable of decisive violence with an unprofessional cop, anyone who knows better knows that couldn't be further from the truth. It's perfectly possible to be friendly, legally cognizant, relaxed, understanding, and polite, but have the decisiveness to get nasty when the situation calls for it. I've worked with those officers and they keep the wheels of society from falling off.

[feudist]

I was tongue-in-cheek with my last statement. I get kind of aggravated, though, when everyone seems to think bigger is better. As in 'big city departments/officers are better' of 'Feds are better' or 'State guys are better.' Not always true, not always false.



RE: throwing money at the problem. In many cases, as has already been mentioned, the city/village/whatever, wants to maintain its own identity, and probably, truth be known, control. Eventually, as recent history has shown, citizens get the law enforcement they desire. That isn't always optimal.

In our area multi-jurisdictional tac teams are fairly common, it's a lot easier to send one or two guys to two days of training each month than a whole team. When you have towns with small departments within ten miles of each other, they tend to help each other out. Back in the day I sent the officer on our eastern most beat to back up the single officer on duty overnight in the small town 10 miles to the east for just about any call that needed back up. We were generally quicker getting there than the SO (at the time).

The problem is that even when two agencies work together pretty well, a change in administration - new Chief, new Sheriff - can screw things up.



That was my hope for our state. It's been a mixed bag. I had hoped to end my career at our state's 'POST' validating and approving in-service training classes. Despite the example of the EMS and Nursing folks, they didn't go that way, instead if the agency head signs off on it, it's good to go. I've seen some pretty lame training under that methodology and had hoped it would change. Obviously, the powers that be didn't share my vision.

When I graduated from the academy I noticed that in Roll Call, the Sergeants would pass out a stack of Rules and Regs that we were required to sign for. This happened at least a couple of times a week. Sometimes we'd sign for several at a time.
Nothing was ever said about it. No discussion or even reading it out loud. I just assumed they were updated R&R and would stick them in the New York phone book that was our R&R. I observed that the veteran officers didn't even take a copy, just signed the roster.
Eventually I noticed that these were the exact same revisions that were already in the book.
So I asked.
This was "Roll Call Training", part of our POST certification. It made up more than half of our "training".
This went on for decades.
About 15 years in, a new POST director audited training and had a meltdown. So it stopped. Until the next big meeting of Sheriffs and Chiefs.
Then it was back.