Dry-Fire vs DA/SA

[PX4 Storm Tracker]

This is pretty much what I'm doing at this point. However, I end fighting the gun more than practicing. On a Beretta 84, it takes quite an effort to start the slide moving as it works against the hammer, but then it becomes much easier. As a result, it's next to impossible to pull the slide enough to re-cock, but not enough to prevent a lock-back (and losing the snap cap, as you observed).

I have found that with my PX4 Storms (which do not require a magazine to fire) the hammer tension is less leveraged against the slide. With a reduced power hammer spring (and there are many options) the problem does not even exist.

It does take a little practice to bring the slide back just enough to reset the trigger and not far enough to eject the snap cap. Using 2 fingers on the safety levers and pinching the back of the beavertail with the thumb usually makes it easy.

[TicTacticalTimmy]

I think you are overthinking things a bit. Here are some notes from how I dryfire:

-for most multiple shot drills, I draw and fire the first shot DA. I then don't let the trigger reset all the way and keep pulling a "simulated SA" for shots 2 and beyond for that drill. This is most of my practice.
-to practice the DA/SA transition, I fire the first shot DA, use my support hand to rack the slide and let my trigger finger out while moving the sights to somewhere above the target as though the gun were in recoil, then regrip and practice recovering from recoil and shooting that 2nd shot SA. I don't feel the need to practice this very much. To do this I guess you would need to deactivate the magazine safety in your Beretta.
-for precision shooting (like a 25yd B8) I shoot all the shots in SA, letting my finder off the trigger and manually cocking the hammer between shots.
-to practice DA trigger control, I just pick a target and continually pull the trigger, trying to pull as fast as possible without losing sight alignment. A DA is great for this because you just keep pulling the trigger without having to reset anything, great for lazy practice. Obviously this could be combined with a draw, press out, draw or transition from odd position, etc.
-for many dryfire drills, I do not pull the trigger at all. As I get more advanced, I will be doing less and less drills where I pull the trigger at all, since trigger control will no longer be the "low hanging fruit" and I will want to focus more on movement, etc.

I would highly recommend getting books from Ben Stoeger or Steve Anderson, which explain how to dryfire effectively, going way beyond just how to pull the trigger.

Also, here is an awesome video that Ben Stoeger uploaded to Youtube recently. I cannot recommend it enough if you are serious about high performance handgun shooting and too much of a poor to sign up for a class. Shortly after the 30min mark he talks about his doubles drill and an interesting tip for dryfiring that drill:

[Oldherkpilot]

This is another one of "which gun for me" questions, but hopefully it's more specific than most.

One thing of practicing dry-fire for me is so-called follow-up: after squeezing the trigger to fire, reset the mechanism and re-acquire the sights, then release the trigger to reset and possibly start another cycle. In a Glock the reset is done by pulling the slide back a little bit.

A while ago I bought a Beretta 84 in order to learn DA/SA. However, it presents a couple of impediments to practice. It does not fire without magazine, so using the rear motion of the slide to reset catches on empty. But more importantly, if trigger is held down, the hammer cannot the re-cocked.

I hope it was clear enough an explanation. So the question is if a DA/SA gun exists that a) fires with no magazine and b) has a hammer that can be cocked with trigger still held back. Does anyone know of one? If you own one, can you test it for me explicitly?

Thanks in advance.

TRT dry fire safety.
I don't use these with my DA/SAs but they are nice for striker-fired pistols. Would solve your mag safety issue, too.

Mod edit: added Amazon link

[1911Nut]

I think you are overthinking things a bit. Here are some notes from how I dryfire:

-for most multiple shot drills, I draw and fire the first shot DA. I then don't let the trigger reset all the way and keep pulling a "simulated SA" for shots 2 and beyond for that drill. This is most of my practice.
-to practice the DA/SA transition, I fire the first shot DA, use my support hand to rack the slide and let my trigger finger out while moving the sights to somewhere above the target as though the gun were in recoil, then regrip and practice recovering from recoil and shooting that 2nd shot SA. I don't feel the need to practice this very much. To do this I guess you would need to deactivate the magazine safety in your Beretta.
-for precision shooting (like a 25yd B8) I shoot all the shots in SA, letting my finder off the trigger and manually cocking the hammer between shots.
-to practice DA trigger control, I just pick a target and continually pull the trigger, trying to pull as fast as possible without losing sight alignment. A DA is great for this because you just keep pulling the trigger without having to reset anything, great for lazy practice. Obviously this could be combined with a draw, press out, draw or transition from odd position, etc.
-for many dryfire drills, I do not pull the trigger at all. As I get more advanced, I will be doing less and less drills where I pull the trigger at all, since trigger control will no longer be the "low hanging fruit" and I will want to focus more on movement, etc.

I would highly recommend getting books from Ben Stoeger or Steve Anderson, which explain how to dryfire effectively, going way beyond just how to pull the trigger.

Also, here is an awesome video that Ben Stoeger uploaded to Youtube recently. I cannot recommend it enough if you are serious about high performance handgun shooting and too much of a poor to sign up for a class. Shortly after the 30min mark he talks about his doubles drill and an interesting tip for dryfiring that drill:

The video by Stoeger is outstanding. He truly impresses me as someone with a great ability to get down to the specifics when it comes to teaching skills.

[Clusterfrack]

The video by Stoeger is outstanding. He truly impresses me as someone with a great ability to get down to the specifics when it comes to teaching skills.

I've learned a ton from training with Ben, and reading his books. The PSTG is a great resource as well. He would be my pick for the best in the business.

Ben has a well-deserved reputation for being a bit of a dickish troll. He's matured quite a bit in the last few years, and for the better.

[1911Nut]

I've learned a ton from training with Ben, and reading his books. The PSTG is a great resource as well. He would be my pick for the best in the business.

Ben has a well-deserved reputation for being a bit of a dickish troll. He's matured quite a bit in the last few years, and for the better.

I had seen some of his "earlier" videos and agree with the dickish troll handle. As a result, I really hadn't been paying much attention to anything he said or did. But I think there is absolutely no question that he has matured since those days, and instructional videos I have seen in the past year have impressed me as some of the clearest, well-presented material available. Impressive.

[That Guy]

So the question is if a DA/SA gun exists that a) fires with no magazine and b) has a hammer that can be cocked with trigger still held back. Does anyone know of one? If you own one, can you test it for me explicitly?

The only hammer fired TDA pistols immediately accessible to me are a Beretta PX4 and a Smith and Wesson 4506. So I tested both of them. The 4506 does have a magazine disconnect though.

With both pistols it was easy to, while pinning the trigger to the rear, grasp the slide with my support hand in an "armorer's grip" (hand over top of slide, thumb on beavertail of grip) and by giving the grip a little squeeze, move the slide back enough to activate the trigger reset. After that I could cock the hammer on both guns. In both cases the movement of the slide was short enough that a chambered snap cap would not have been in any danger of becoming unchambered. For what it's worth, the PX4 had an audible click letting me know it is reset, with the 4506 there was no tactile or audible sign of the gun resetting, I just pulled back the slide where I thought that must be enough and then let it forward again.

Based on my little experiment, I would be inclined to claim you should be able to reset the trigger in most if not all TDA pistols in this manner, should you choose to. Although personally I don't think that training in this manner is the best use of your dry practice time.

Personally, I don't find it very relevant to spend much time during my dry practice working on SA, and none of it riding the reset. If I'm pulling the trigger at all on my TDA pistol, it's typically all DA, even multiple trigger press drills. I have done some DA/SA transitions in reverse - start with the gun cocked, two trigger presses - to work on that skill, and some SA trigger presses, but personally I find if I can make a clean DA press then my trigger pull is pretty much good to go, on any firearm I shoot. Most of my trigger manipulation practice is with a revolver, since I find shooting my Ruger Speed Six accurately more difficult than my other DA firearms. With my pistol, the majority of practice is draws (from different positions, with movement, etc.) to a sight picture, then stroking the decocker lever as I take the gun off target. This is because a) my draw stroke needs all the practice I can give it, and b) because learning to decock the gun automatically when you come off target is really important with a decocker TDA gun. Your training needs may of course differ.

[Shawn Dodson]

Get a Rogers 9mm Tap-Rack Training Aid and trim the nose to fit it to your .380 magazine. I've done this to dryfire with my .380 G42 with a magazine that has a finger extension baseplate installed. It allows you to rack the slide with the magazine installed.

https://www.amazon.com/Pack-Safety-T...6894583&sr=8-1

[TicTacticalTimmy]

Another thing I wanted to add, regarding snap caps:

Personally I dont use snap caps for dryfire, unless I am doing something like practicing slidelock reloads. I dont use any 'protection' at all, but then again I am curious to see if something will break and when.

If I do want 'protection', what I find much easier to work with than a snap cap, is an o ring tightly wedged in the back of the slide, such that the hammer hits the oring when it falls. I have an assortment of different sized orings I bought for like $10-20 on Amazon. As @Clusterfrack mentioned, you can also use a dispisable ear plug for this purpose.

[DDTSGM]

Ben has a well-deserved reputation for being a bit of a dickish troll. He's matured quite a bit in the last few years, and for the better.

Much to the chagrin of the trolls on The Doodie Project.

I took a class from Ben. He doesn't waste time and, from my point of view, made it a point to watch and address each shooter while dry-firing the drill and then doing the same thing during live fire. Be glad to spend money and time with him in the future.