Those are the videos I referenced. I suggest that a moderator make a link to these videos a sticky.Originally Posted by runcible
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Those are the videos I referenced. I suggest that a moderator make a link to these videos a sticky.
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Any legal information I may post is general information, and is not legal advice. Such information may or may not apply to your specific situation. I am not your attorney unless an attorney-client relationship is separately and privately established.
When I first saw the videos, I assumed the purse would be a complete fail until I watched that video.
One maker of thigh holsters who I do not believe is still in business had a video on her website showing a discreet draw from a thigh holster worn on the outside of the leg, while turned away from the camera. This would likely only work in certain circumstances.
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Any legal information I may post is general information, and is not legal advice. Such information may or may not apply to your specific situation. I am not your attorney unless an attorney-client relationship is separately and privately established.
While wearing a tuxedo at my wife’s brother’s wedding, I did not have a belt. I carried in a Galco Miami Classic shoulder holster.
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Any legal information I may post is general information, and is not legal advice. Such information may or may not apply to your specific situation. I am not your attorney unless an attorney-client relationship is separately and privately established.
We bought a bra holster to try with a P32. Awkward is the best word I can think of for what the whole process looks like in person. And not really concealing a gun that tiny on a reasonably fit woman with DD cups makes me wonder how it could really work for anybody. There should have been enough real estate for it to work, if it was going to, but it just made everything like odd, unbalanced, and unnatural.
She didn’t talk about it being uncomfortable, though.
These videos are the equivalent of a Tueller drill. Would she have "won" with AIWB or strong side belt carry? Probably, not in the way these tests were conducted. They are certainly not a realistic test of a street level crime or a display of proper tactics. This is the equivalent of those "tests" that show someone with a concealed gun can't stop an active shooter where the role players know who's armed. I do not find either of them compelling evidence of anything "real world".
Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.
I don't speak for Foxy Brown on any of this, though I'd offer that she had a pretty narrow intent in filming and posting these videos, namely as described below each:
"The purpose of this video series is to compare unconventional on-body carry to off-body carry methods when attempting to access a firearm under pressure," with an emphasis on how the required access dynamics deformed under even slight pressure.
Writing strictly from a mechanics perspective:
Any carry position significantly above the waist is going to require a greater degree of either garment clearance or diving a hand up underneath the garment, both of which add friction points to the required drawstroke.
Something like the Marilyn and many high-riding\horizontally-carrying shoulder holsters are going to involve reaching considerably past the center-line, bending the wrist maximally past the neutral in order to assert the firing grip; and all of the trapping\fouling\exploitation concerns that go with that, re: entanglement.
Something like the Flashbang adds the elastic element of the bra to which it is attached, which adds significant ambiguity to when the shell will release from the firearm. More so, if drawing with as near to neutral a wrist as able, the muzzle tends to flare away from the body and then hang-up on the outer garment. If drawing with a relaxed wrist, then as the elbow draws away to pull the weapon down and away from the shell, the wrist tends to articulate and deflect the muzzle-line upwards and towards-body\towards-head. (ETA: bras aren't really load bearing equipment, despite the arguably convergent evolution of modern bras and military chest rigs - they're load restraining equipment. Bands are generally less-elastic, but over-the-shoulder straps are generally very elastic, and those latter are what will be resisting the downward sweep of the drawstroke.)
Bag carry is a mixed bag given the lack of relative positional consistency and opening methods. Those who would be proficient in it need to work from a consistent physical indexing, which generally means moving the holstered weapon to a position analogous to AIWB for the unpressured stuff. The bag participating in some sort of fending position post-access\pre-draw has emerged in some past testing, but I don't have a strong opinion of the desirability or lackthereof in that respect.
I think Foxy Brown's videos illustrate such points better for most, than any words I can write on the matter.
Last edited by runcible; 03-09-2019 at 01:04 PM.
Jules
Runcible Works
The tactics displayed were SouthNarc’s Managing Unknown Contacts. The attacker is a former Illinois State Police Lieutenant with significant undercover experience. Both SouthNarc and Larry (the attacker) have put themselves and those they supervised in the position of interacting with criminals who did not know they were police, and are quite familiar with how criminals attack from that experience.
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Any legal information I may post is general information, and is not legal advice. Such information may or may not apply to your specific situation. I am not your attorney unless an attorney-client relationship is separately and privately established.
There’s a lot to be said for a bright light to the eyes of a dog combined with a loud harsh command of your choice. It’s my first choice on dogs. I use Pfui (Phooey) because it’s automatic for me. American dogs have no idea what a Dutch command is but they recognize the tone.
Just a dog chauffeur that used to hold the dumb end of the leash.
I've taken SouthNarc's course and don't recall anything like an overt draw with a bad guy closing on you and/or going for a gun while the bad guy is uncontrolled. Probably because, as shown, it doesn't work.
Criminals attack in different ways in different contexts. Criminals who target women for purse snatches are, by and large, only doing purse snatches. They don't act like that. I have *never* seen a purse snatcher entangle a woman intentionally, and never seen a prolonged grapple unless you count trying to break the strap of cross-body carried purses. It takes too long, and most purse snatches are in fairly populated areas. Retail, restaurants, etc. A place with large numbers of potential victims. The first target is the unattended purse. The purse left in the shopping cart while the owner puts bags away, etc. Failing that, snatches happen at choke points. Doorways into buildings (hence my warning above), at the car door, etc. The last resort is the running grab. This is often targeted toward the elderly, the women who can least afford a fall, and cross body carry knocks them down.
Taking nothing from the LT and his undercover work, but this is definitely in my wheel house. This guy: https://www.theindychannel.com/news/...or-more-crimes was my arrest, for example. I spent literally weeks building a profile for interrogation purposes. Other than how prolific he was, Hardy Stepp was very representative. Selecting targets based on perceived inability to fight back, a quick ambush, and then fleeing. There is no grappling. There is no verbal warning. There is no starting 21' away while you are aware of him. He either ambushed them while they were unaware of his presence are closed with a socially acceptable reason to do so. Holding a door or asking directions where his MO. Without going into the whole psychology of purse snatchers, there is a reason they aren't holding up higher payoff targets, like pharmacies, cell phone stores, etc. They are more akin to scavengers then they are to predators.
ATM robberies can look a little different, but they aren't purse snatches. ATMs are more likely to have multiple assailants as well, as you're more likely dealing with a robbery crew vs a lone robber. You might get some grappling there, and even a kidnapping to force you around to take more money out. Even at that, drawing without an opening is not going to go well.
*edit*
I should add the above assumes an adult suspect. Juveniles are more unpredictable and, frankly, often more violent. They are less likely to be "professional" robbers and simply take a target of opportunity, which is often someone they know. They are much more likely to be in groups. Generally groups of youth robbers who are willing to fight target men, though, as status and "street cred" is an important factor and there's little to be had from purse snatching.
Last edited by BehindBlueI's; 03-09-2019 at 03:39 PM.
Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.
Cooper wrote that fighting back is a social duty. If I determined that surrendering a wallet would end the confrontation, then I would hand it over. One reason would be avoiding a gunfight. Another would be avoiding interaction with the criminal justice system. I fear any involvement with it. A second is that I wish not to pay an attorney $1000s of dollars to represent me between the time of the shooting and the end of the whole matter. If this matter or affair continues, then expense would continue to mount. If I perceived that I was going to be beat, cut, knifed, or tied up anyway, then my response would be to fight back. The further I travel from my hometown, the more cautious I am about involvement with the criminal justice system. I live in a conservative and gun friendly town but must not assume that all other places have similar attitudes. The criminal justice system includes the beat cop, detectives, jail personnel, district attorney, grand jury, probation department, and prison personnel. Navigating this route for many is an expensive nightmare. You have to pay. If you can't, then you get a free attorney. Here free attorneys communicate through a video system. There is no face to face interaction for those unable to make bail. Your free attorney is not your friend. Your paid attorney may not be either. You will find that he or she will not take your phone calls. You will learn that this person plays golf and poker with district attorney staff and may trade you to them. That's right, your attorney might give you to them in return for special favors for another client. At one time I was the law librarian for a county jail. I worked with inmates and saw this crooked shit over and over again. I learned that here free attorneys are paid based on guilty pleas. Felony pleas paid the most. Some attorneys make their living in the plea out business. Going to court pisses off the judge and d.a.
My post presents my views and to some extent my experiences which include the state prison system and two sheriff's departments. I'm a few years removed from the CJS. I'm generalizing based on limited exposure. But it's what I know. It most likely differs elsewhere. Money talks; bullshit walks. Pulling the trigger will cost plenty.
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