So I finally made it to the range last Wednesday. I ran dot torture with my glock 19 w/ big dot sights. I went 46/50 dropped three at who but the group was nice. Dropped the other on pressout on dot 9.
Made it to range on sat with a borrowed HK da/sa p30. Shot it again and went 48/50. I was pissed as my who was sweet. Dropped one on dot 2 and one on dot 10. NEED TO DEF WORK ON MY PRESSOUT...
While I can see doing Dot Torture annually, or a small subset of it (one or two dots), I think doing the whole drill much is counterproductive to shooting accurately at speed. With Dot, you have the ability to perfectly align your sights and make a slow, careful press of the trigger. The more your brain associates slow and perfect with an accurate shot, the harder to do it at speed, especially one hand.
Can you explain your logic here? Shooting the DT more than once a year somehow causes your speed shooting skills to deteriorate????Originally Posted by GJM
As long as you practice both skill subsets regularly, they will both improve. Pistol skill is not a fixed sum where increasing skill in one area equates to reducing skill in another.
If I can ride my motorcycle at 2 mph with putting my feet down, it does not mean that I can't roll it into a 90 mph sweeper with equal or better skill.
Practice both, learn when to use each one and improve each day.
Gringop
Play that song about the Irish chiropodist. Irish chiropodist? "My Fate Is In Your Hands."
I thought I did explain above why frequent DT would be counterproductive, for example, to shooting support hand only at speed. Go do Dot Torture a few days in a row, and then try to make support hand only seven yard head shots from the transition in .75, the Rogers School standard, and I think it will be clear to you.
gringop, in my comments, I am assuming your goal is to Aim Fast, Hit Fast, or even Aim Fast, Hit Small, but not to become a slow fire, bullseye shooter.
if you want the more detailed explanation, Bill Rogers addresses this topic starting on page 62 of his book. For those that have been there, Bill Rogers in his Sunday night lecture, describes if your goal is to teach drivers to drive fast, why you can't teach them slow. He then goes on to relate that to teaching reactive shooting. I don't know anything about motorcycles, but I bet if your goal is to safely do 90 mph sweepers, you don't learn that, after the novice level, by spending a significant amount of your training time taking those same curves at 20 mph.
There is a reason Todd named his course AFHF and not Aim Slow, Hit Slow.
Now, if you were to break each shot on Dot Torture at the termination of a realistic speed, press out, I think it could be helpful -- but not by turning it into a slow fire, precision exercise and doing that repeatedly.
We are probably more in agreement than I originally thought. If all someone does is practice bullseye, then they are gonna suck at speed shooting. I have witnessed this personally several times. Conversely, if all you practice is speed drills at 7 yards, you are gonna suck on a B-8 at 25 yards.
The key, IMHO, is to practice both in proportion. Kyle Defoor's drills and quals seem to illustrate this pretty well.
What I do not agree with is that shooting DT more than once a year will degrade your speed shooting skills. Both need to be practiced. I credit practicing DT, along with other drills, with me making Master in IDPA.
BTW, I never shoot DT as a slow fire, 3 second per shot, drill. As soon as sights are on target, press trigger. As per David Blinder's instructions.
"When you can do this clean on demand, extend the length or start timing and work on speed but maintaining accuracy. If a single shot is missed, you flunk. Only hits count and only perfect practice makes perfect.
Gringop
"Moderation in all things" (Publius Terentius Afer)
Play that song about the Irish chiropodist. Irish chiropodist? "My Fate Is In Your Hands."
It does sound like we are pretty close. However:
As per David Blinder's instructions.
"When you can do this clean on demand, extend the length or start timing and work on speed but maintaining accuracy. If a single shot is missed, you flunk. Only hits count and only perfect practice makes perfect."
As soon as someone says miss one shot and you flunk, my reaction is to take enough time to guarantee the shot, undermining the goal of breaking the shot at the extension of the press out. I like Todd's standard, of 90 per cent of your body hits or better, as to me that strikes a better balance of speed and accuracy.
Not to speak for Todd, but that is not his standard. 90 percent is the standard when emphasizing speed at the expense of accuracy. E.g., you are doing a drill where your goal is to increase you speed. This is exactly like doing a bulls-eye drill where you emphasize accuracy at the expense of speed.
When doing a test, the goal is still 100 percent hits in the required target area.
Dot Torture, in my opinion, is a lousy drill. It's a very good test. As such, the frequency with which you should shoot it depends on how often you believe you accuracy fundamentals need testing. Testing in and of itself doesn't lead to improvement. It can only point out what we're doing wrong and where we need to improve.
If you cannot score 50 on Dot Torture going slow, going faster is not a solution. It's a smokescreen.
The "90% hits fast" thing should only come into play on a drill after you can get 100% hits slowly. And then only if my goal is to be faster performing that particular task.
I've got no heartburn with someone who wants to shoot Dot Torture at speed. It will test something different, but it's still valid. It's not an ideal way to do so, but it can work. I just wouldn't worry about the speed until I could clean it on demand at a slow pace.
Since I'm the infamous David Blinder, thought I'd lob a comment on this. I'm reminded of a lady who asked the golfer Ben Hogan how to make a 1 iron back up and he asked how far she hit a 1 iron. When she replied "about 150 yards", he asked "why the hell would you want it to back up?"
The moral to my story is if you can't do it clean slow and/or at short range, why the hell do think doing it fast or longer with misses is a good thing? It was designed as a test of marksmanship fundamentals and nothing more. The faster/farther you can do it clean, the better your fundamentals.
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