How Important Is The Perfect Grip?

[McCoy]

I'd throw out to try the FNS as well if you guys haven't already.

Ref Shield vs 1911; You're more likely to get a gun that works right now going with the Shield, for half or more of the cost, and with the lower recoil and all that we know the 9mm brings to the table. You can likely get a Shield, holsters, ammo, mags, and a good class all for less than what a quality 1911 is going to cost.

That said, if girl wants a 1911, can conceal it, and shoots it well, then.........

Yeah, I've been working the cost argument.

I think we might just be in the "I want a 1911 because I want a 1911" edge of the envelope right now, and having gone through that myself, there's not much to be done about it.

[ken grant]

This is a bit of a long question, so I apologize in advance. As a long-time lurker, I figured you were the guys and gals to ask.

My girlfriend got into firearms a little less than a year ago after a guy started stalking her at her job and advanced to progressively creepier and more threatening acts and the cops took the (understandable) position of, "Call us if he actually commits a crime." I'd gotten my CCW license and started taking classes a few years prior, though I still consider myself a novice. We shopped around a bit, test fired a lot of rental guns, and she eventually settled on a Gen 4 Glock 19 (which is what I carry now as well, in case, you know, we get into a Mr. & Mrs. Smith-style multiple assailant gunfight in the streets of suburbia and need magazine interchangeability or whatever).

I figured she wouldn't keep up with it, but she's surprised me, and recently got her own CCW and has been taking a lot of classes (which is great), including several outstanding female-oriented ones that she really seems to like. The problem is, she has tiny hands, and it's becoming more of an issue the more she starts working seriously on things like drawing from concealment. If she gets the proper grip on the gun - seated directly in the web of the hand so it's lined up with the forearm bones, etc. - her index finger just isn't long enough to even make it to the trigger. If she shifts her strong hand to the right a little, she can get to it, but the gun's just slightly offset from that perfect alignment, and that's really started to annoy her.

Her solution is to move to a 1911. She's been banging away with one I have but don't carry, and found that a short 1911 trigger with thin grips lets her both get the "perfect" alignment and get enough finger on the trigger for proper trigger control. She's slowly shopping around for a 1911, and I'm trying to talk her out of it. My argument's pretty simple; I think sacrificing some perfection on the grip in favor of sticking with a far less expensive gun she already owns beats transitioning to a less concealable, heavier, far more expensive pistol with less capacity. She shoots the 1911 better, but only marginally so (at least as far as her time and accuracy on the drills she shoots goes). I can field strip a 1911, but that's really about it, and I know that I'd find one a pain in the ass to carry and conceal every day, so I'm thinking it'll be even harder for her to carry (as she's a hell of a lot smaller than I am), and the extra maintenance/knowledge burden might turn her off completely after a while.

So what's the verdict? Is proper gun-wrist-forearm alignment absolutely necessary, or should I keep banging the drum on sticking with the less-than-perfect grip on the Glock? She'll do what she'll do anyway, but I'd like to talk her out of throwing a kilobuck at a Colt Railgun or whatever if I can.

Just how many GOOD shooters have the pistol in line with their forearm when using an ISO stance?

[Mr_White]

Quick question for those who aren't concerned about having the slide/barrel align with the bones of the forearm when shooting freestyle from mod iso: do you think that lack of alignment becomes more significant when the pistol is fired with one hand only?

What I'm getting at is whether there may be a difference between lacking that alignment in mod iso because of back pressure in the wrist/forearm of the strong hand, vs. lacking that alignment because the hand and gun don't fit well so the h-grip is used out of necessity, and how effectively those two arrangements might translate to shooting the gun one-handed.

[Kimura]

Yeah, I've been working the cost argument.

I think we might just be in the "I want a 1911 because I want a 1911" edge of the envelope right now, and having gone through that myself, there's not much to be done about it.

Has she tried a P2000 in TDA or a USP compact with a safety only? Maybe she'll like one of those.

Regarding the 1911; like any pistol I would make sure I could shoot it one handed with either hand. And since she's going to carry it, if you have a 2.5lb pound all steel pistol hanging around and a holster to fit it, she might want to try wearing one around the house for a day or two before making a final decision. The only 1911 I've done a decent amount of shooting with is a TRP Operator and it clocked in at 41 or 42oz. It was a great gun, but it was also really heavy. May or may not make a difference to her.

[EricM]

Could someone please define the term "h-grip"? This thread is the first time I've come across it.

[Clusterfrack]

That's a great question, Gabe. I'll answer for how it works for me. If I make a U shape with my hand, so the thumb is straight, a small frame Glock is aligned with the thumb, the backstrap is square against my palm, and my trigger finger can form a neutral position on the trigger when it breaks. The gun seems to be ideally aligned in my hand in an unambiguous grip, which is one reason I like Glocks so much. With a two handed grip, proper alignment of the sights with my eye requires a slight rotation of my wrist, which "misaligns" the gun with the bones of the forearm. I don't see much of a difference in wrist angle when I transition to SHO--just enough to maintain sight alignment when I move my left foot back a bit.

When my 14-year old daughter shoots a Glock, she has to H-grip, and that kittens up her SHO and WHO shooting.

[Mr_White]

Could someone please define the term "h-grip"? This thread is the first time I've come across it.

h-grip is what a person does when the reach to the trigger is too long for a person's hand size/finger length/finger strength, and they need to adjust their grip to get more finger on the trigger. The side effect is normally to make it harder to reach controls with the strong hand thumb on the support side of the gun, and to prevent alignment between the slide/barrel and the bones of the forearm when the gun is held with one hand. Having that slide-forearm alignment is something that is often (traditionally, I think?) taught as part of a 'proper grip' and part of 'proper' gun-to-hand fit, but that is not universally agreed upon. That more traditional grip is also not possible when the factual situation is that a person is stuck with a gun (issued, economic, or other situational necessity) that is too big for their hands, so it does have to be dealt with at least some of the time.

That's a great question, Gabe. I'll answer for how it works for me. If I make a U shape with my hand, so the thumb is straight, a small frame Glock is aligned with the thumb, the backstrap is square against my palm, and my trigger finger can form a neutral position on the trigger when it breaks. The gun seems to be ideally aligned in my hand in an unambiguous grip, which is one reason I like Glocks so much. With a two handed grip, proper alignment of the sights with my eye requires a slight rotation of my wrist, which "misaligns" the gun with the bones of the forearm. I don't see much of a difference in wrist angle when I transition to SHO--just enough to maintain sight alignment when I move my left foot back a bit.

When my 14-year old daughter shoots a Glock, she has to H-grip, and that kittens up her SHO and WHO shooting.

That's pretty much how it breaks down for me too and that's exactly what I was getting at. I used to 'overgrip' comparatively speaking, which was probably a hangover from when I shot an old school G21, which I h-gripped slightly. A few years ago I changed to gripping less, which allowed the more traditional slide-forearm alignment and gets less finger on the trigger (this was with the G17 and later the G34.)

[runcible]

H-grip is a new term, for me.

As described, I H-grip almost every pistol that I've ever picked up, minus some modern single-stacks.

While having some of the described alignments and indexes would probably be nice, in the end, they're absence is not an unassailable obstacle to proficiency. I do alright when it comes to qualifications, tests, and at classes; as do others with such hands and the same metal-framed, double stacked, high bore axis duty-weapon.

One must often ignore the preached "ideal" as depicted with the ideal hands on the most suitable of guns, and do what it takes to get the rounds where they need to be from the gun you hold in your own hand(s).

[Mr_White]

I'm not at all suggesting that 'good shooting' or 'proficiency', whatever we want those kinds of terms to mean, can't be done with the h-grip. As noted, some people in some circumstances are stuck with the h-grip. Clearly it is workable. I think the question is whether it is an impediment, and whether it makes a difference freestyle, one-handed, neither, or both.

[Clusterfrack]

A while ago I was experimenting with a slight h grip that allowed me to get some support hand thumb base behind the gun. It was great for recoil control but I moved away from that for multiple reasons: trigger finger mechanics, consistency with SHO, and mag release.