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Thread: Shotguns vs rifles

  1. #161
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    Think about this guys...if it were really the problem everyone is making it out to be, wouldn't we be just as effective shooting wads at clay pigeons instead of shot?
    If you're shooting clays close enough that this question seems logical you might seek a better thrower. I wouldn't use a starter pistol to shoot clays but I wouldn't put the barrel to my eye and pull the trigger.

    Lightweight projectiles rapidly decelerate but at close range can penetrate the skin, etc. If you happen to have a copy of Di Maio's "Gunshot Wounds" 2nd ED take a look at page 219. Polyethylene and polypropylene filler used in some buckshot and birdshot shells penetrated facial skin just fine.

    Knight's "Forensic Pathology" states that the wad will stay with the shot column and likely enter the shot wound within 1-2 meters. 2-5 meters it will drop enough to create it's own wound, and after that the wad is unlikely to hit the body at all. Wad wounds are typically just abraded skin.

    My personal opinion is the wad is probably going to be staying with the shot column at distances where it's likely to cause any significant injury, but wads and filler can cause some level of injury.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  2. #162
    Member JHC's Avatar
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    This here is from 25 yards one round of FCC 00B and two Fed Tactical Truball.
    Attachment 43079


    FCC 00B from 40 yards
    Attachment 43080

    Exceeded my expectations
    Last edited by JHC; 09-29-2019 at 10:10 AM.
    “Remember, being healthy is basically just dying as slowly as possible,” Ricky Gervais

  3. #163
    I have the most real world experience with an AR. It still isn't what I am going to choose if I know I am fighting in a house. It is a great and versatile tool but I want a semi auto 12 gauge with good buckshot.
    Last edited by breakingtime91; 09-29-2019 at 01:56 PM.

  4. #164
    Abducted by Aliens Borderland's Avatar
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    What you need to worry about with your shotgun, is whether or not it holds a proper pattern at your maximum engagement distance. Whether or not you can run the gun effectively (i.e., don't short stroke it, have the muscle to keep the semi-auto running, etc). Whether the gun is reliable. And whether or not YOU can hit what you're aiming at.
    I would wager that most people have never patterned their shotgun. The only people I've seen that check their patterns are people that reload because they're curious how their loads are performing. Everyone else just accepts the marketing hype that the loads they're using are the best for what they're using them for. Buckshot is no exception in the shotgun world. It's just another type of shot used for a special application.

    One of the problems with patterning shot is the lack of a place to do it. I belong to a club that has over 500 members, has a trap range and sporting clays range, but no pattern plate. Even at popular ranges where I've shot that had a plate nobody ever used it.

    A question I have to ask, because I don't know, is in all of this training using buckshot, is a pattern plate used so people can actually see the limitations of the ammo/shotgun they expect to use in a HD situation? If there's no way to do that then I wouldn't waste my money on any training that didn't provide that experience. Every shotgun is going to pattern a certain load, no matter the shot size, differently.
    Last edited by Borderland; 09-30-2019 at 10:41 AM.
    In the P-F basket of deplorables.

  5. #165
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    @Borderland - I've never used a pattern plate, just a paper target. The ghost ring sights on my 590A1 are zeroed for ten yards with Federal Flight Control eight-pellet 00. Federal Tru Ball just happens to hit the same place.

    Reminds me I need to check POI at closer ranges...

  6. #166
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borderland View Post
    A question I have to ask, because I don't know, is in all of this training using buckshot, is a pattern plate used so people can actually see the limitations of the ammo/shotgun they expect to use in a HD situation?
    Patterning happens in every shotgun class I teach.

    Each individual has the opportunity to pattern their gun with buckshot they would consider using for defense. The class description encourages them to bring at least some sort of that ammunition so they can test it in class. We then have them shoot patterns at different distances looking at how their gun performs with the load they chose, comparing performance to other folks in the class and their equipment.

    We encourage folks to use their cell phone cameras to document their gun's performance so they have a baseline to compare any other loads they try against, and so they have some documentation of how their gun performs should they ever need to use it in defense. We also discuss things that can impact patterns like fouling in the barrel, installing different chokes, etc.

    The defensive shotgun is used primarily with buckshot...so we place a heavy emphasis on understanding how your gun performs with the type of buckshot you have chosen to use.

    These days I'm finding most clients are coming to class with Federal Flight Control. Not terribly surprising because I suggest it in the course descriptions...but I suggest it because it tends to give results that vary between very good and truly excellent whereas many other buckshot loads range from very good to shitshow depending on the gun.

    We always point out that we are looking for a pattern that gives us maximum effect on target (as explained earlier in the thread) and for a pattern that gives us total accountability for the projectiles we fire. I don't really care what brand it is if I'm getting the results I'm looking for, but after shooting a lot of buckshot through a lot of shotguns (Rob Haught and Tom Givens have done more defensive buckshot testing than I have, but there probably aren't too many other names we could bring up who have) Federal's Flight Control performs well enough in practically every gun we've seen that it is my default recommendation for someone who doesn't already have an established load for their gun.

    Every shotgun is going to pattern a certain load, no matter the shot size, differently.
    We refer to shotgun barrels as snowflakes. Given the wide variation that typically exists in their manufacture and the wide variations that exist in ammunition manufacture, and then on top of that how fouled the barrel is, predictions are difficult.

    I taught a class Saturday where we saw a gun with a Vang Comp modified barrel that shot Federal Flight Control ammunition very well, but Hornady's Versa-Tite (same wad, different name) ammunition like absolute dogshit even at 5 yards. The internal geometry of the barrel was fine with the Federal load, but it was actually stripping the wad off of the shot column on the Hornady load causing the pellets to spread out unacceptably at even close range. The differences between those two shells was likely exceedingly minor...but it was enough to generate a massively different result on the other end.

    We had a police issue 870 that was turning in the worst performance with Federal Flight Control I've ever seen, and after finding out that the department that gun belonged to had only very recently stopped using their practice of exclusively issuing lead slugs I suggested making a deliberate attempt to de-lead the barrel and trying to pattern again. I'm awaiting feedback on that one but I suspect it will perform significantly better after the years of lead buildup that results from slug shooting are removed from the barrel.

    In terms of barrels, Beretta & Benelli are manufacturing their barrels with tolerances that are likely the most stringent in the industry at the moment so their guns tend to perform more consistently between different samples than many other makes. I have yet to see a 1301 that shoots Flight Control badly. Some shoot it better than others, but none in the dozens I've seen shoots it badly.
    Last edited by TCinVA; 09-30-2019 at 12:02 PM.
    3/15/2016

  7. #167
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by revchuck38 View Post
    @Borderland - I've never used a pattern plate, just a paper target. The ghost ring sights on my 590A1 are zeroed for ten yards with Federal Flight Control eight-pellet 00. Federal Tru Ball just happens to hit the same place.

    Reminds me I need to check POI at closer ranges...
    By all means check it, but you will likely find it's essentially the same. Because the sights sit so much closer to the centerline of the bore on a shotgun, sight offset isn't something we have to factor in the same way we would with an AR pattern rifle.

    If you are zeroing slugs for 50 or 100 you may well find you need to have some sort of offset figured for closer ranges.

    I'm a fan of zeroing the gun for what you will most likely be doing with it. Mine are going to be used 25 yards and in as defensive weapons, so they are zeroed at 25. I then confirm that zero at closer ranges with my Flight Control. Wherever I put my front sight is where the payload ends up at all the distances between point blank and 25 yards. Which is fine for my use.
    3/15/2016

  8. #168
    Abducted by Aliens Borderland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post
    Patterning happens in every shotgun class I teach.

    Each individual has the opportunity to pattern their gun with buckshot they would consider using for defense. The class description encourages them to bring at least some sort of that ammunition so they can test it in class. We then have them shoot patterns at different distances looking at how their gun performs with the load they chose, comparing performance to other folks in the class and their equipment.

    We encourage folks to use their cell phone cameras to document their gun's performance so they have a baseline to compare any other loads they try against, and so they have some documentation of how their gun performs should they ever need to use it in defense. We also discuss things that can impact patterns like fouling in the barrel, installing different chokes, etc.

    The defensive shotgun is used primarily with buckshot...so we place a heavy emphasis on understanding how your gun performs with the type of buckshot you have chosen to use.

    These days I'm finding most clients are coming to class with Federal Flight Control. Not terribly surprising because I suggest it in the course descriptions...but I suggest it because it tends to give results that vary between very good and truly excellent whereas many other buckshot loads range from very good to shitshow depending on the gun.

    We always point out that we are looking for a pattern that gives us maximum effect on target (as explained earlier in the thread) and for a pattern that gives us total accountability for the projectiles we fire. I don't really care what brand it is if I'm getting the results I'm looking for, but after shooting a lot of buckshot through a lot of shotguns (Rob Haught and Tom Givens have done more defensive buckshot testing than I have, but there probably aren't too many other names we could bring up who have) Federal's Flight Control performs well enough in practically every gun we've seen that it is my default recommendation for someone who doesn't already have an established load for their gun.



    We refer to shotgun barrels as snowflakes. Given the wide variation that typically exists in their manufacture and the wide variations that exist in ammunition manufacture, and then on top of that how fouled the barrel is, predictions are difficult.

    I taught a class Saturday where we saw a gun with a Vang Comp modified barrel that shot Federal Flight Control ammunition very well, but Hornady's Versa-Tite (same wad, different name) ammunition like absolute dogshit even at 5 yards. The internal geometry of the barrel was fine with the Federal load, but it was actually stripping the wad off of the shot column on the Hornady load causing the pellets to spread out unacceptably at even close range. The differences between those two shells was likely exceedingly minor...but it was enough to generate a massively different result on the other end.

    We had a police issue 870 that was turning in the worst performance with Federal Flight Control I've ever seen, and after finding out that the department that gun belonged to had only very recently stopped using their practice of exclusively issuing lead slugs I suggested making a deliberate attempt to de-lead the barrel and trying to pattern again. I'm awaiting feedback on that one but I suspect it will perform significantly better after the years of lead buildup that results from slug shooting are removed from the barrel.

    In terms of barrels, Beretta & Benelli are manufacturing their barrels with tolerances that are likely the most stringent in the industry at the moment so their guns tend to perform more consistently between different samples than many other makes. I have yet to see a 1301 that shoots Flight Control badly. Some shoot it better than others, but none in the dozens I've seen shoots it badly.
    Sounds like your course is money well spent.

    Beretta was my choice for competition. No one builds a better barrel....at any price.
    In the P-F basket of deplorables.

  9. #169
    While I appreciate the shotgun and would grab one over a handgun... I’d choose a rifle over the shotgun every time.
    Last edited by El Cid; 09-30-2019 at 09:41 PM.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Borderland View Post
    I would wager that most people have never patterned their shotgun. The only people I've seen that check their patterns are people that reload...
    And 3 Gun competitors...

    I’ve only pattered my competition shotgun, none of my defensive ones.

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