KRtraining - red dot study

[DocGKR]

Yup: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....238#post604238

[AsianJedi]

I think Karl is one of the few CO GMs, so he probably has a pretty good idea of what it takes to shoot a slide mounted RDS pistol well.

In another group, Karl said he shot those 4 CO classifiers using his irons not the dot. Karl is obviously an outstanding shooter and I respect him for his work on the subject, but basically he just got his Production GM card twice. Post screenshoted for reference.

His work on subject is very interesting as is the rest of the post.

[Default.mp3]

In another group, Karl said he shot those 4 CO classifiers using his irons not the dot. Karl is obviously an outstanding shooter and I respect him for his work on the subject, but basically he just got his Production GM card twice. Post screenshoted for reference.

His work on subject is very interesting as is the rest of the post.

The question is, why did he do that? Was it a question of not being familiar enough with the gun to track the dot fast at close range? Or was it a conscious decision he made after finding himself unable to replicating iron sights performance at close range, despite extended practice and experimenting? If it was the latter, then his statements on the use of RDS vs. irons at close range should be even more powerful.

[GJM]

When Hwansik Kim placed second in the CO Nationals he was using a Walther Q5 without iron sights. When I saw Shane Coley, winner of CO at area 2, I don't believe his G34/DP Pro had BUIS. Looking at pictures on the web, it appears CO Nationals winner, Max Michel, had no iron sights on his CO pistol.

My range bag has two Q5 stops with a DP Pro, and one with just iron sights (FO front, adjustable black rear). I frequently shoot arrays with both set-ups, and am consistently faster with the dot.

Anyone have the Paul Howe test handy?

[Mr_White]

www.combatshootingandtactics.com/standards.htm

[Tom Duffy]

From Karl's study:
The biggest takeaway for me from the study was the value of the green laser (not the red dot sight).* There are far more people carrying laser equipped pistols than there are using red dot sighted pistols as carry guns, and in classes I’ve seen older shooters with limited ability to focus at front sight distances gain more capability from the laser than the red dot sight. I shot the 2016 Rangemaster Tactical Conference match using a Viridian light/laser, never getting a traditional sight picture on any target, placing 7th out of more than 150 shooters.* Shooters running lasers in my low light shooting classes have done very well.*

The discussion so far has centered around the pros/cons of red dot sights. I think the real conclusion of the study confirms the effectiveness, even superiority, of a green laser at normal defensive distances by most shooters.

[joshs]

From Karl's study:
The biggest takeaway for me from the study was the value of the green laser (not the red dot sight).* There are far more people carrying laser equipped pistols than there are using red dot sighted pistols as carry guns, and in classes I’ve seen older shooters with limited ability to focus at front sight distances gain more capability from the laser than the red dot sight. I shot the 2016 Rangemaster Tactical Conference match using a Viridian light/laser, never getting a traditional sight picture on any target, placing 7th out of more than 150 shooters.* Shooters running lasers in my low light shooting classes have done very well.*

The discussion so far has centered around the pros/cons of red dot sights. I think the real conclusion of the study confirms the effectiveness, even superiority, of a green laser at normal defensive distances by most shooters.

I don't think this should be surprising to anyone who has spent a substantial amount of time using a pistol with visible laser. The problem, in my experience, is that available handgun lasers are either bulky or have durability/zero shift issues.

[DocGKR]

While I like green lasers and have several mounted in conjunction with pistol slide RDS, they have limited utility in bright light and at longer ranges--think shooting down a long school hallway, a mall area, or a baseball field to stop an active shooter armed with a rifle...

[SouthNarc]

While I like green lasers and have several mounted in conjunction with pistol slide RDS, they have limited utility in bright light and at longer ranges--think shooting down a long school hallway, a mall area, or a baseball field to stop an active shooter armed with a rifle...

I'll agree with that Gary. That being said for a specific kind of interior movement in low light, green lasers are pretty stunning in performance enhancement. I have a .gov client I work with about every 6 weeks on this very issue. SLG has assisted me with one of those work-ups and I know he likes them.

[rob_s]

That to me seems to be the key. If we exclude vision issues from the mix it seems that we are on round 4 of folks thinking they discovered something new with a slide mounted dot and every time equipment issues come up. Especially with the round counts many need to get where they wanna be performance wise from 0-50.

Couple that with the hordes of disapointed people looking to replace training time with dollars, at each iteration. Sometimes the very same people every time. Process seems to go:
1) I can't shoot well
2) I don't want to practice or get training
3) I need a gear solution
4) Zounds! They're putting red dots on pistols!
5) I still can't shoot well.
6) ah, I see, the technology isn't there yet, I'll go back to irons
7) Zounds! They got better red dots on pistols!
Repeat 5-7