The Five Shot

[Bruce Cartwright]

Getting back to the original topic, I saw Colt only briefly mentioned. Did anyone carry Colt Detective Specials or other Colt steel-frame equivalents, or was Smith & Wesson a mostly universal preference?

BillSWPA:

I never saw any Colt revolvers. They may have been on the Personally Owned Weapon ("POW") List but I never actually witnessed any. There were several updates to the POW list and as my time in the Bureau progressed, the list kept getting shorter. That said, as to Colts, I had the ultimate revolver accessory issued to me at one point: a 1928 U.S. Navy Overstamp Thompson Submachine gun. Somewhere, I have a copy of my personal inventory list with the Thompson on it.
Bruce

[Bruce Cartwright]

Glad to see you posting on this Bruce. Thank you! This place will be better with Bruce here. He is one of the very few folks from the FBI I really like. Many of their gun guys are squared away and were usually disliked within their own agency, but also the few that get along well with outside agency folks and can play well with others.

Dagga Boy:
Thank you for the kind words. I means a lot. I remember when Uncle Pat introduced us. I miss him. I raised a tumbler of Macallan's to him the other day. Bruce

[Bruce Cartwright]

I share Mr. Cartwright’s preference for the Spegel-stocked no-dash M640 as the best steel J-frame POW option. It sat lower in the pocket than the magnum M640-1, and its DA action was a little better than the Chief and Bodyguard alternatives. Mine gave me excellent service prior to the 2004 edict. It was of much greater day-to-day utility than any of the hi-speed long guns locked in the trunk of the Bucar.

The guns were typically shot once a year for qualification on the 50-round Double Action Course, and that was about it. The issue “Plus P Plus” Hydrashok 147s (of song and story) had difficulty making minor power factor--even out of a 4” barrel--and did not beat the guns apart, so they almost never required repair. I don’t think our office sent even one five-shot back to Quantico for repair during the five-year stretch I kept track. So the loss of gunsmith support as the reason for dropping already-approved POWs rang a little hollow.

And no other approved handgun, then or now, enabled the agent working alone to knock on an unfamiliar door ready to reliably deliver a sub-one second hit from the pocket, if necessary, without alienating the resident or the neighborhood whose cooperation he was attempting to enlist. If you needed to do a car meet with a particularly-sketchy Source, a J-frame under the thigh provided a combination of control, accessibility, and safety, which no other firearm option could match. Sadly, the loss of the J-frames left a hole that has not been filled by any of the small Glocks, even though they are excellent pistols.

EDW:
Amen to all of that. I did exactly what you described on a brutally cold, snowy winter day in New England in a very sketchy situation. Having 5 rounds of 38 in my hand was a great comfort that day.
Bruce

[Dave J]

The guns were typically shot once a year for qualification on the 50-round Double Action Course, and that was about it.

Out of curiosity, could anyone provide the specifics of this course of fire?

[LtDave]

BillSWPA:

I never saw any Colt revolvers. They may have been on the Personally Owned Weapon ("POW") List but I never actually witnessed any. There were several updates to the POW list and as my time in the Bureau progressed, the list kept getting shorter. That said, as to Colts, I had the ultimate revolver accessory issued to me at one point: a 1928 U.S. Navy Overstamp Thompson Submachine gun. Somewhere, I have a copy of my personal inventory list with the Thompson on it.
Bruce

Colt revolvers were gone by the time I attended the FBI Academy in early 1986. It was my understanding that they were removed from the POW list once the last Colt armorer at the gun vault retired. My personal inventory included a 2" Model 60 and a 3" Model 66. Never saw a Thompson in my field office, although we did get to shoot one at Quantico.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Out of curiosity, could anyone provide the specifics of this course of fire?

Here it is from Bill Vanderpool's excellent book "Guns of the FBI: A History of the Bureau's Firearms and Training", page 286:

Double Action Course (DAC) - entire course is "fired using the Weaver Position"

5 yards - 6 rounds fired in pairs, 3 seconds per pair
4 rounds fired in pairs, 3 seconds per pair

7 yards - 6 rounds fired in pairs, 3 seconds per pair
4 rounds fired in pairs, 3 seconds per pair
10 rounds: start loaded with six rounds, fire six, reload with four and fire that four in a total of 20 seconds

15 yards - 6 rounds fired in pairs, 3 seconds per pair
4 rounds; fire all 4 in 6 seconds

25 yards - 5 rounds kneeling in 10 seconds; repeat for total of 10 rounds.

Two points per hit in "K5 or K4 area"; 100 points possible; 80 points to qualify

[Bruce Cartwright]

Colt revolvers were gone by the time I attended the FBI Academy in early 1986. It was my understanding that they were removed from the POW list once the last Colt armorer at the gun vault retired. My personal inventory included a 2" Model 60 and a 3" Model 66. Never saw a Thompson in my field office, although we did get to shoot one at Quantico.

LtDave:
Thanks for the education on the Colt revolvers. A friend of mine is a retired agent. He came on the Job in 1967. He was issued a Colt, didn't like the action and finagled a swap for an S&W.
Bruce

[Bruce Cartwright]

Here it is from Bill Vanderpool's excellent book "Guns of the FBI: A History of the Bureau's Firearms and Training", page 286:

Double Action Course (DAC) - entire course is "fired using the Weaver Position"

5 yards - 6 rounds fired in pairs, 3 seconds per pair
4 rounds fired in pairs, 3 seconds per pair

7 yards - 6 rounds fired in pairs, 3 seconds per pair
4 rounds fired in pairs, 3 seconds per pair
10 rounds: start loaded with six rounds, fire six, reload with four and fire that four in a total of 20 seconds

15 yards - 6 rounds fired in pairs, 3 seconds per pair
4 rounds; fire all 4 in 6 seconds

25 yards - 5 rounds kneeling in 10 seconds; repeat for total of 10 rounds.

Mr. Dobbs:
Thanks for providing the course of fire. I am glad you beat me to it and saved me the transcription time. I haven't looked at that CoF in a while, but in addition to using the Weaver stance, every string of fire started with the agent drawing the gun. There was no firing from "ready" if I recall correctly.
Bruce

Two points per hit in "K5 or K4 area"; 100 points possible; 80 points to qualify

[LtDave]

The course of fire I remember most was the old Tactical Revolver Course. You scored a 300 to become a member of the Possible Club. Info on the Possible Club and course of fire is here: https://historicalgmen.squarespace.c...e-possible-cl/

My first 300 shot with my issue Model 13.



The second time I cleaned it was at a regular qualification at my field office with my 3” Model 66 Unfortunately, to become a club member you have to do it at a specific shoot. I didn’t shoot as good that day.

[Wayne Dobbs]

The course of fire I remember most was the old Tactical Revolver Course. You scored a 300 to become a member of the Possible Club. Info on the Possible Club and course of fire is here: https://historicalgmen.squarespace.c...e-possible-cl/

My first 300 shot with my issue Model 13.



The second time I cleaned it was at a regular qualification at my field office with my 3” Model 66 Unfortunately, to become a club member you have to do it at a specific shoot. I didn’t shoot as good that day.

Shooting a possible on the TRC was an achievement for sure. Lots of 25 and 50 yard shooting on that one. My current quest is to shoot a perfect 400/400 on the LAPD Advanced Combat Course AKA the "Bonus Course", which is a butt kicker.