FCC banning FRS combination radios September 30 2019

[mtnbkr]

I don't believe it's the analog Baof's everybody is buying.

It's the encrypted DMR and unsigned HF digi mode traffic... Radioddity, Baofeng, Ailunce, Motorola, SignaLink, etc. But most of the affordable DMR stuff is not heavy duty encryption...

It's countered by IQ recording and RDF, with some serious assets for those big fish making big splashes in TPTB' pond.

"Et tu, Norteamericano?"
-Pablo Escobar

Sent from my VS835 using Tapatalk

Possibly, but their warning was put out to the ham community which doesn't use any sort of encryption per the rules.

I'm not up to speed on DMR, does it have an encryption capability? I haven't heard anything about it in the amateur radio community and one would think the oldtimers (the CW or die folks) would be up in arms over that.

That said, some of the recent actions by the FCC against vendors (ie Rugged Radios) has been due to the analog stuff. Also, referenced is the preponderance of the cheap Baofengs at virtually every protest.

Chris

[mtnbkr]

Okay- would any of the stuff mentioned in the previous 6-9 posts help me communicate with my wife from 30-40 mi away if cell towers are down/overloaded?
If that’s the case, 2 x $35 or so is well worth the investment and some time spent training with them.

If not, is there another option for say, under $100 for two units that would get me that goal or better?

If you're not a licensed amateur, nope. As an unlicensed person, your only legal options are FRS, GMRS (which has an administrative license, but most people ignore that), and CB. CB can cover that distance in the right conditions. FRS/GMRS, both UHF, don't do well much over 10 miles unless you have a good antenna at some height (similar to what I describe below). FRS is limited to 2w and fixed antennas on handhelds, GMRS can go up to 45 watt mobile or base radios with external antennas (on your roof or car). Regardless, both are UHF, which doesn't play well with obstacles like buildings, hills, etc.

If you go the licensed amateur route, you can then start using VHF handhelds and repeaters. However, if things are so bad the cell towers are impacted, then amateur repeaters may also be impacted (or overloaded). Point-to-point, ie simplex, is going to be VERY challenging with VHF at the distance you mention. Generally, with both parties on the ground, you're doing good to go 5-10 miles in moderately hilly terrain with a handheld. With one of you at elevation, you can stretch that to 60+ if you're lucky. Using a mobile rig and good antenna (mo' powah), 30-40 miles is getting easier, but could still be difficult in hilly terrain unless one of you is at a higher elevation. Height Above Average Terrain (HAAT) is important here. Do some Youtube research on SOTA VHF to see what I'm talking about.

You *CAN* use amateur gear in an emergency without a license, but the likelihood you'll be successful is low because you and your wife won't have had the opportunity to practice and develop your strategy. If you start using repeaters without IDing with a callsign, the repeater owners and users will make it their mission to find you. Hams tend to be good and finding repeat offenders (there's a radiosport called foxhunting that focuses on this sort of thing).

Anyway, the point is, there is no magic bullet here.

ETA: I just saw the reply from @schüler. Essentially the same thing.

Chris

[whomever]

Okay- would any of the stuff mentioned in the previous 6-9 posts help me communicate with my wife from 30-40 mi away if cell towers are down/overloaded?
If that’s the case, 2 x $35 or so is well worth the investment and some time spent training with them.

If not, is there another option for say, under $100 for two units that would get me that goal or better?

Way more than $100 (like $350 plus $10/month each) but the iridium based thingys ('Garmin InReach' is one) can communicate from pretty much anywhere, *if the iridium network is up*. And it is kinda sorta like really clunky text messages, not voice. They gateway in and out, i.e. you can send messages from the thingy to people's cell phones or email, and vice versa, with some caveats.

I wonder if someone will eventually do a Starlink based version?

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If any of the radioheads would like to expound more on the practicalities of CB for that kind of application, I'd love to hear it.

[mtnbkr]

Way more than $100 (like $350 plus $10/month each) but the iridium based thingys ('Garmin InReach' is one) can communicate from pretty much anywhere, *if the iridium network is up*. And it is kinda sorta like really clunky text messages, not voice. They gateway in and out, i.e. you can send messages from the thingy to people's cell phones or email, and vice versa, with some caveats.

I wonder if someone will eventually do a Starlink based version?

--------

If any of the radioheads would like to expound more on the practicalities of CB for that kind of application, I'd love to hear it.

For the layperson, a satellite-based solution is probably the more reliable way to go.

Regarding CB, aside from the cost of the radio and antenna, it's free. Also, with a good install and good antenna (not one of those shortened coil-loaded jobs), CB has good reach. However, there are still a number of variables that can affect performance at any given time, so it's less certain than the services mentioned by yourself.

Chris

[Hambo]

Way more than $100 (like $350 plus $10/month each) but the iridium based thingys ('Garmin InReach' is one) can communicate from pretty much anywhere, *if the iridium network is up*. And it is kinda sorta like really clunky text messages, not voice. They gateway in and out, i.e. you can send messages from the thingy to people's cell phones or email, and vice versa, with some caveats.

I've got a HAM license, but I finally went with the InReach because I can message everybody in my emergency contact list in one shot, with lat/long coordinates. My Yaesu handheld with an external antenna has sufficient range to reach somebody, eventually. That and if I broke an ankle the last thing I'll want to to is fuck around getting my antenna set up.

If you start using repeaters without IDing with a callsign, the repeater owners and users will make it their mission to find you. Hams tend to be good and finding repeat offenders (there's a radiosport called foxhunting that focuses on this sort of thing).

Chris

Yes, they are. There are no radio trucks like in WW2 movies, but they burn a few people around here every year.

[whomever]

For the layperson, a satellite-based solution is probably the more reliable way to go.

Regarding CB, aside from the cost of the radio and antenna, it's free. Also, with a good install and good antenna (not one of those shortened coil-loaded jobs), CB has good reach. However, there are still a number of variables that can affect performance at any given time, so it's less certain than the services mentioned by yourself.

Chris

I'd be interested in more details about the 'good reach' part, e.g. I think Gyro is in the Colorado Front Range, which is fairly flat. What's a reasonable guess for min/likely/max distances for CB in that kind of terrain? Handheld to handheld? Car to car? Car to handheld?

Or to put it another way, I have GMRS and know what it will/won't do (simplex). Does CB or MURS have any range advantage over GMRS for that kind of generally flattish terrain?

[mtnbkr]

I'd be interested in more details about the 'good reach' part, e.g. I think Gyro is in the Colorado Front Range, which is fairly flat. What's a reasonable guess for min/likely/max distances for CB in that kind of terrain? Handheld to handheld? Car to car? Car to handheld?

Or to put it another way, I have GMRS and know what it will/won't do (simplex). Does CB or MURS have any range advantage over GMRS for that kind of generally flattish terrain?

It's kind of a hard question to answer because there are so many variables. However, in general, CB will have a greater reach than GMRS and MURS. CB operates at roughly 29mhz (HF, but I forget the exact frequency range), while GMRS is 460mhz (UHF), and MURS is in the 150mhz (VHF) range.

The reason repeaters are popular with 2m/70cm (VHF/UHF) ham radio is because they are more limited in range. You see less use of repeaters as you go down in frequency because of the increased native reach (6m or 50mhz has some limited repeater use, 10m or 28mhz has some but fewer still, you don't see repeaters below that at all).

In general, lower frequencies go further due to the size of the radio wave. Lower frequencies have larger waves, which tend to handle obstacles and such better. Also, lower frequencies *can* be reflected by the ionosphere, enabling them to essentially bounce up and down between the earth and upper atmosphere. In CB, that's referred to as "skip". That phenomenon doesn't happen with UHF or VHF in the same way (really at all, but there are other mechanisms that can replicate that).

Skip and other such mechanisms aside, over flat land with no significant obstructions (large buildings, etc), I would expect CB to go tens of miles, MURS to go several miles but fewer than double digits, and GMRS to go low single digits to low double digits depending on the power level (FRS, which is the same frequency range is limited to 2w, but true GMRS can go as high as 45). This all assumes proper radio and antenna configuration though. A poor CB install with a short coil-loaded whip won't be as strong as a well thought out GMRS installation with proper bonding and a good antenna (quarter wavelength whip rather than something overly coil-loaded).

I hope I'm explaining this clearly. I'm trying to stay away from some of the geekier aspects and describe things in more generalist terms.

Chris

[mtnbkr]

I've got a HAM license, but I finally went with the InReach because I can message everybody in my emergency contact list in one shot, with lat/long coordinates. My Yaesu handheld with an external antenna has sufficient range to reach somebody, eventually. That and if I broke an ankle the last thing I'll want to to is fuck around getting my antenna set up.

That and there might not be anyone listening! I did a Parks On The Air activation yesterday using 6m FM "just because". I called CQ for 30 minutes and got not a single response. Now, I didn't expect anything because 6m is kind of a hipster band, but I really want to put my radio's 6m capability to work. Imagine if I had to rely on that in an emergency. Other bands can be better, but if you're down in a deep valley and only have a 2m handheld, you're fooked.

Yes, they are. There are no radio trucks like in WW2 movies, but they burn a few people around here every year.

Yup. Personally I'm less fussed about unlicensed folks using ham frequencies if they're exercising good practices and are respectful. The ham bands just aren't that busy and most repeaters are silent 95% of the time. However, there are those hams who are VERY territorial and any violation is THE WORST THING EVER.

Still, folks who want to use the ham bands should get licensed. It's not hard and the material covers a lot of good practice and safety knowledge folks should have (amateur radio can involve high voltages and high amounts of RF you should be aware of and respectful of).

Chris

[whomever]

It's kind of a hard question to answer because there are so many variables

...

I would expect CB to go tens of miles,

Many, many thanks. I grok the 'many variables'.

Is that 'tens of miles' handheld to handheld, with a shortish (couple of feet??) antenna, or car-to-car with longer antennas, etc?

Again, I really appreciate it. Buying a couple of GMRS handhelds to test with is cheap enough, but it gets expensive to buy other ones w/o even a guess as to relative performance.

[mtnbkr]

Many, many thanks. I grok the 'many variables'.

Is that 'tens of miles' handheld to handheld, with a shortish (couple of feet??) antenna, or car-to-car with longer antennas, etc?

Again, I really appreciate it. Buying a couple of GMRS handhelds to test with is cheap enough, but it gets expensive to buy other ones w/o even a guess as to relative performance.

Tens of miles assumes a vehicle-mounted radio with a large antenna.

BTW, CB is limited to 4w output, FRS is limited to 2w, GMRS is limited to 45w. I'm not sure about MURS, but since I've mainly seen it in handhelds, I doubt it goes much higher than 5w or so. Amateur radio gear, aside from specific bands that have regulatory limits, is generally capped at 1500w. That said, most of your amateur handhelds are about 5w, most of your VHF/UHF mobiles top out at about 70w, and HF gear tends to top out at 100w until you add external amplifiers.

Bit of an anecdote...

I was doing a bit of four wheeling up in the mountains with my buddy. We're both hams, so we used our VHF (144mhz) radios to keep in touch. We were both running 70w, really overkill to talk vehicle to vehicle not more than 25yds apart, but it's what we had and we were too lazy to turn the power down. Anyway, his ancient antenna failed after one too many branch strikes, so he switched to his handheld. That worked fine for us as we were generally within 50' of each other. At one point, this lady breaks in on the frequency to ask what kind of gear I was running. She was traveling down the local interstate maybe 5 miles away, but on the other side of a mountain. Apparently my signal was bouncing off the mountain we were on, changing polarity (VHF FM typically uses vertically polarized antennas), and coming to her stronger on her horizontally polarized antenna. We chatted back and forth and did some testing with her two antennas (vertically polarized and horizontally polarized). The entire time, my buddy could hear her, but she could not hear him because his handheld lacked the power to reflect off the mountain to her.

In a similar vein, there's a thing called Earth-Moon-Earth, aka EME, where hams bounce signals off the moon to other hams down on earth. If the two both have visibility of the moon but maybe in different hemispheres, it effectively becomes a repeater that allows contact across the horizon for bands that are typically constrained by the curvature of the earth (aka VHF and UHF).

Chris