Greg E article on effectiveness of dogs

[Coyotesfan97]

Most PDs buy what the vendor sells. The vendor sells what they can buy and have pass selection they can buy darn near anything. I have seen this from the inside for the last three years. My mal has to be listed as "other breed" for schutzhund. Buy a dutch dog, and pedigrees are few and far between. The dutch, and the KNPV place zero emphasis on bloodlines, only on performance.

I have seen dogs shuffled out of training. The dogs that have problems with fight drive dkn't make good patrol dogs. They may make good detector dogs, if they have sufficient prey drive. Lacking that and you are relying food drive to train your dogs. The vendors need return on investment, and find ways to push marginal dogs into work. Even unacceptable dogs get sold for a (small) profit to the public, who truthfully are provided by "named" trainers. But if the dog has flaws that a skilled traner cannot overcome, what are your odds? You need to have a channel to communicate with and thus train your dog.

Local PD officers in most cases can tell you who they buy thier dogs from. A better option for finding a good dog is finding a local schutzhund group (or ring sport, ad nauseum) and start learning about desireable traits in dogs. Someone in the club, over a reasonable time period is bound to have a litter, or an older dog that needs a new home. Once you learn what traits to look for, you can start selecting puppies. Then the crapshoot begins. Good parents are no guarantee, nor is the best trainer in the world, it is an amalglamation. A good trainer can bring a mediocher dog around, and genetically gifted dog can survive a bad trainer in many circumstances....

It really is a crapshoot. Raising a promising dog now makes me very much aware how tentative the blend of genetics, socialization, and training combine to create a shot at success.

pat

I’ll disagree slightly here. The Dutch don’t care about looks they care about performance. They want working dogs they don’t need pretty dogs.

As far as not getting pedigrees if the dog has a KNPV title you can find it’s pedigree on https://www.bloedlijnen.nl. Just go to zoeken and type in his BRN. My dogs name is uncommon and searching by his name resulted in finding him easily. I know who his parents are, his grand parents, and is great Grand parents. I see how they are titled and what awards they have won.

Here’s a history of the Malinois and some of the famous dogs in KNPV history. The Dutch look for these names in pedigrees. http://www.hondensport.com/Engelsmalinois.html

“In this article I will mention legendary Malinois and their bloodlines from the sixties, seventies and eighties in Holland. Let me tell you in advance that I won't go back to the beginning of this century and also not to the actual decade although there has been a recent ‘rich' development. The reason why some recent kennels and names t won't be mentioned is because of this perspective. That will be something for later on to get in detail in the future issues of the magazine ‘Hondensport & Sporthonden'. Surrounding countries (especially Belgium and France) also have their historical bloodlines but we will report about this also later in the magazine ‘Hondensport & Sporthonden”

By “fight” drive do you mean defense drive? I’ll usually break down dogs drives as Prey (hunt), Defense (fight) and Play (for detection). Prey and Defense need to be balanced. If your dog is too defensive he won’t be a good patrol dog.

Our vendor gives us a year warranty where the dog can be returned at any point for an exchange. They have worked with us and given credit if we’ve had to return a dog past that year. We’re pretty particular about the dogs we want. Generally we want dogs that have a PH1 title. If I were buying a personal dog I would look at the vendor selling to PDs. You’ll probably be paying more for the dog.

We’re also fortunate to be friends of a couple Dutchmen who have been in working and training Police dogs for 60+ years between the two. They have traveled to Arizona for dog trials and seminars many times. There’s nothing like seeing a Dutch dog who’s been in the US given commands in Dutch by a native speaker. It wakes them up.

[Ed L]

This is why they use Neapolitan mastiff in Bandog breeding's.
They are back breakers and strong enough to do combat with humans.
Breed in a game bread Pit or a Presa Canario and you have a handful of dog.

Why would you need to breed in a Presa Canario to a Neapolitan mastiff?

I would think the Pressa is large enough to more than get the job done.

[UNM1136]

Slight disagrement is the result of knowlegeable opinions. I don't think we are too far off, I definately agree that the dutch breed for working ability over all else. I am currently of the opinion that KNPV is probably the toughest arena to get an initial title on the dog. I did not realize there was a searchable database for knpv pedigrees, but it makes sense.

I cut my teeth on the term fight drive, the best definition I have seen is the dog's protection work taking the forwardness of prey (drive) with the inensity of defense (drive). I will have to do some homework, but the term seems to be used to descibe the dog that is pushy or confident in taking the fight to the man, vs a dog that is trying to protect himself (defense) or kiwl da wabbit (prey). I realize that not many use the term, but it makes sense to me as a term to describe the protection work with a dog that is well trained, experienced, and has solid nerves (genetics).

I agree that a dog needs to be balanced, and too much defense is not good for a patrol dog. I have been decoying for longer than I have been handling, by a lot, and when doing weekly canine training I had to be clear if the instructor wanted an easy, stress free bite (prey) or challange for the dog (fight). We rarely used defense outside of developing a green dog, as most of the dogs in the unit when I started decoying had more street time than I did. Intimidatjng those dogs was not really possible for a new decoy. As solid dogs gained experience intimidaring behaviors became a challange to the dog.

Anyway, I have seen the rejection rates of dogs from the local vendor. Some dogs make the cut, many don't. Those that don't make the cut for dual pupose are re-screened for detection work. The guy who bred my dog had a litter of 7, with two of them making it this far in the training, and neither of them are titled or selection tested yet. The rest had to go somewhere. This guy is more of a broker, buying dogs, doing the green work, and then trying to sell them to the vendor. In the last 18 months he has sold about 40 dogs, and had to find homes for about 25-30. Strangely, a large number of his dogs, GSDs, Mals, and dutchies are being imported from...Mexico. The vendor also travels a bit and buys a lot of dutch dogs, belgian dogs, and french dogs. All the dogs I have seen this vendor sell seem to be really solid.

pat

[LittleLebowski]

This is why they use Neapolitan mastiff in Bandog breeding's.
They are back breakers and strong enough to do combat with humans.
Breed in a game bread Pit or a Presa Canario and you have a handful of dog.

No trainer ever said my 85lb Mal was too weak to do combat with humans, just saying

[Mjolnir]

From my understanding the Cane Corso was a recreated breed from a variety of dogs that kinda had a similar type:

http://www.canecorso-magazine.com/ma...ndex.html#p=21

This included introducing other dogs into the breeding --like the Neo Mastiff. Older style Neo Mastiffs looked more like Cane Corsos. Here is a picture of an older style Neo Mastiff:

Attachment 22806

The Corso is an old breed. Very old breed/type/phenotype. The Neopolitan is the one I suspect is odd one - bred with crazy exaggerated features to the point it's worthless (as it's currently being bred).

There is a Cane Corso Forum on FB that I've joined - not because it's my favorite breed but because the guys there study history and the history of the dog, in general and the mastiff family, in particular. So we all have decent libraries and work with working dogs are work wth people who have them.


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[Mjolnir]

Last night one of my rookie detectives had a home invasion. The victim residence had two pitbulls, and the intruder was bit. The intruder attacked the dog with a knife, not injuring it but dissuading it, and completed the robbery.

Pit Bulldogs USUALLY will not engage a man in my experience - thank God.


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[Mjolnir]

This is why they use Neapolitan mastiff in Bandog breeding's.
They are back breakers and strong enough to do combat with humans.
Breed in a game bread Pit or a Presa Canario and you have a handful of dog.

I prefer a lighter, faster, more agile, higher drive dog for that (and all purposes): a "coursing mastiff" or "light mastiff" (my terms). The Spanish wiped out the natives in the New World with dogs of a phenotype like the working Argentinean Dogo and the "lebrel" or "heavy-headed Greyhound"; like a modern day Alaunt.



Not only are you NOT getting away from this dog, he can run all damned day; something that Bandog could never hope to do.


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[Mjolnir]

Another "lebrel" or lurcher or Modern Alaunt:



These types of dogs would be released into groups of natives and they'd disembowel a person with three or four shakes according to contemporary authors.

Why we choose to take a fine, athletic war dog and turn them into an "estate dog" I do not know. We seem to ruin EVERYTHING that becomes popular.

Of course, WHO has a need for a dog that can LITERALLY run with the cavalry, run into battle, do battle and run back to camp?

Very few...


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[TAZ]

The Lance Armstrong of the canine world. That thing looks like something out of a scify movie and not in a happy way.

[Coyotesfan97]

Pat I remember hearing that there were dogs coming up from Mexico but I forget who told me. It was probably at a seminar. There’s a Mexican Handler who competes at our state K9 trial. He always does very well and he’s had great dogs.

Even in Holland breeding working dogs with great lines they usually only get a couple good pups that develope into police dogs.