https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?t=19698
Here's the link.
JR1572
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?t=19698
Here's the link.
JR1572
Here's ayoob on the topic
http://smith-wessonforum.com/conceal...liability.html
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"Shooting is 90% mental. The rest is in your head." -Nils
More Ayoob:Originally Posted by HopetonBrown
https://americanhandgunner.com/unint...anes-incident/
However, what many people missed, including Sgt. Williams, was these guns were listed in the Glock catalog and website under “sport” — not “duty” or “self-defense.” It has always been Glock’s policy when police departments order these guns, they’ll be shipped with the standard 51/2-pound connector.
In reviewing Sgt. Williams’ deposition by an aggressive plaintiff’s lawyer, I couldn’t help but notice the plaintiff’s attorney always called it “31/2 pounds,” the original designation, which it did in fact measure on earlier models when measurement was taken from the toe, or bottom, of the pivoting trigger. Sgt. Williams, correctly I think, always called it “41/2 pounds,” which is what it measures from the center of the trigger, where the finger actually lies. It’s a leverage thing: both are technically correct. However, while Glock later changed the designation from 31/2 to 41/2, it’s the exact same part, and still forbidden by Glock for duty/self-defense pistols.
Williams doesn’t recall being given this warning in a Glock armorer’s class. I have no reason to doubt him. While most Glock armorers do remember it, some I’ve talked to don’t. It may be their particular instructor/trainer simply left it out, or it may be what adult education teachers tell us: We only remember a small percentage of what we hear in a class, as opposed to what we feel and experience. The 51/2-pound minimum pull weight for duty/defense Glocks remains nonetheless in company policy, and the policy carries incredibly powerful weight in court when opposing counsel is trying to show that you are negligent.
Last edited by HCM; 05-26-2016 at 06:14 PM.
How is trigger on Ayoob's 1911? Surely it's not shit.
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Think for yourself. Question authority.
In my opinion it boils down to this....
If you have a "bad" shooting which can be attributed to a (partially or completely) modified/non-stock trigger in whichever pistol you carry, the modified trigger WILL come into play to some extent in both criminal and civil litigation.
If you have a highly modified pistol and you are involved in a "good" completely justified shooting, the modifications won't make any difference. The family of the bad guy you shot may try to file a civil lawsuit against you in the end, but they would likely do the same even if your pistol is bone stock.
Not sure I completely buy the argument that having an aftermarket trigger in any gun can lead to liability in a good shooting. Good shooting defined as you intended to shoot the guy who you can articulate posed an immediate threat of death or serious injury. NDs or bad shootings I can see how more liability can be asserted against those with modified guns. I can see the argument if you hadn't dropped the pull weight to 3# you may have had better control... But I think you'd need to prove it was a bad shoot first.
If we were to accept that anything better than out of the box is a liability what happens after 100000000 dry fire reps that have polished the parts, worn springs and dropped pull weight a bit. How is that different from a polished kit for say Glockparts? Do we have to monthly order poorly stamped and finished items from Glock so we can keep the triggers as horrific as when we pick up our guns???
Last edited by TAZ; 05-27-2016 at 11:12 AM.
Go check out the podcast listed earlier from ballistic radio. It addresses the whole "good shoot" myth. Very eye opening.
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"Shooting is 90% mental. The rest is in your head." -Nils
We can argue "good shoot...bad shoot" and the implications of after-market or reduced weight triggers all day but the reality is further discussion on this point is harping on a trifle because THE LAW IS SUBJECTIVE. Hence venue shopping, prosecutorial discretion and the need for lawyers in general.
My original question concerned after-market trigger reliability in terms of a hypothetical Geiselle Glock trigger or other known quality manufacturer. IMO the debate about "good shoot...bad shoot" and after-market components is similar to the 9mm v. 45 debate.
Last edited by davisj; 05-27-2016 at 02:25 PM.
Can one of you pistolero cats please remind me of what the total pull weight of an OEM glock gen 3 trigger with stock connector and then with a (-) connector is? Thanks
1911 has a manual safety, which is supposed to stay on until you've made a decision to fire. Also has a much shorter pull, a different animal than a Glock.
Ayoob has also recommended minimum pull weights on 1911's of 4 to 5 lbs for years.
Think of an M&P with a DCAEK vs an M&P with a FSS - I would only want an FSS kit with the manual thumb safety.
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