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Thread: Gabe White Standards

  1. #181
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Cross posted from Mousegun thread…

    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    Gabe White Standards 7 yds
    Kahr P380 concealed in pocket holster, hand on gun. I like this gun!

    Bill 2.31 -.25: 2.06 L

    F2S 2.06 +.25 -.25: 2.06 L
    F2S 1.83 -.25: 1.58 T

    2H 1.64 -.25: 1.39 T
    2H 1.75 +.25 -.25: 1.75 T

    4B2H 2.57 -.25: 2.32 T


    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
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  2. #182
    Member JHC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    Cross posted from Mousegun thread…
    And IIRC the -.25 signifies the credit for a concealed draw . . . which is hand in pocket. NOICE

    Very cool shooting with a micro.
    “Remember, being healthy is basically just dying as slowly as possible,” Ricky Gervais

  3. #183
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post
    ...Clusterfrack did a turbo pin run with a P380 (but I wouldn't have given a 0.25 correction for concealment because you'd have to do hand outside the pocket to really count).
    This is worth discussing. For several years, I've been using @Mr_White's drills as a test for self-defense applications. In particular, the concealed carry par times are the standards I'm using to compare my different carry guns and systems.

    But what about pocket carry? IMO, the big advantage of pocket carry over a holster is being able to have my hand on the gun without it seeming unnatural. So that's where I'm starting from to compare to AIWB. Interestingly, my first shots from the pocket weren't much--if any--faster than from AIWB. Possibly due to the difficulty of forming a solid support hand grip on a mousegun.

    It is interesting to consider how much of a handicap there is to start with hands out of pockets. It's at least 1-2 seconds for my pants pockets under ideal conditions. Not good... Did I recall that @BehindBlueI's had some data on this?
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

  4. #184
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    @Clusterfrack

    I agree with the pocket advantages.

    But IMO, the gun on grip is a neutral time draw like an open holster.

    If you want to give BUG guns a specific handicap I think that’s fine.

    But riddle me this for just the pocket mechanics.

    If I had you start with your hand on your Production gun in a front sweatshirt pocket, what do you think the time delta would be from an open holster draw versus a concealed draw.

    For me, hand on gun in pocket is about the same as open draw if you take the specific gun out of the equation.

    The 0.25 time is to support hand clear a cover garment which isn’t the situation with a pocket draw.

    What say you?

  5. #185
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    I'd rather have @Mr_White comment, but here are my thoughts:

    I don't think the open and concealed times are directly comparable. Anyway, that question is more for bragging rights and awarding pins.

    My goal was to directly compare performance of an AIWB draw to a hands-in-pocket mousegun draw, so that's why I calculated it the way I did.

    Good questions about gun vs. draw type and position. Yes, my understanding is that clearing the garment represents 0.25s in the original design of the GW drills. However, with a decent AIWB draw I think it's a significant advantage for making the Turbo par times. The gun makes more of a difference than anything else--especially as the splits and transitions to the head add up.

    I'm guessing I could shave 0.25s off a pocket draw by using a full-size gun (assuming it fit in a pocket without snagging), but also 0.05 to 0.10 on each split and transition. I was really surprised that the p380 wasn't even slower for good shots. This was the second time I've shot that gun, and only have ~100 rounds through it so I'm confident I can build skill with it. It's really great ergonomically for such a puny gun.

    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post
    @Clusterfrack

    I agree with the pocket advantages.

    But IMO, the gun on grip is a neutral time draw like an open holster.

    If you want to give BUG guns a specific handicap I think that’s fine.

    But riddle me this for just the pocket mechanics.

    If I had you start with your hand on your Production gun in a front sweatshirt pocket, what do you think the time delta would be from an open holster draw versus a concealed draw.

    For me, hand on gun in pocket is about the same as open draw if you take the specific gun out of the equation.

    The 0.25 time is to support hand clear a cover garment which isn’t the situation with a pocket draw.

    What say you?
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

  6. #186
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    @Clusterfrack

    To be clear I think Gabe White standards from a pocket draw is very reasonable.

    I just wouldn’t support giving it an additional time benefit.

    If you gave everyone that option to start with hand on gun in pocket for 0.25 bonus instead of having to clear cover and draw IWB… I know I would certainly take that option over a conventional concealed holster for speed and reproducibility.

    I don’t think any pocket correction factor is possible for hands outside pockets because pockets are so different.

  7. #187
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post
    If you gave everyone that option to start with hand on gun in pocket for 0.25 bonus instead of having to clear cover and draw IWB… I know I would certainly take that option over a conventional concealed holster for speed and reproducibility.
    Great argument for pocket carry, or being able to start a defensive draw with hand on gun...
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    My goal was to directly compare performance of an AIWB draw to a hands-in-pocket mousegun draw, so that's why I calculated it the way I did.
    I think that’s fair and understandable.

    I think I would have just reported times and hits because pin level gets gamey when using non standard starts.

    If that’s seen as equivalent, I would certainly exercise that option in any GW class I attended.

    I normally carry a P365X and am confident I’d be faster and more consistent from hand on gun pocket draw than concealed AIWB so that’s where I’m coming from.

    Just the mechanics and advantages.

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    Great argument for pocket carry, or being able to start a defensive draw with hand on gun...
    Lately I’ve been rocking a left front pocket snubby. I really like it.

  10. #190
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post
    ...times and hits because pin level gets gamey when using non standard starts.
    Fair enough. For the gamers:

    P380 pocket draw, hand on gun
    Bill
    2.31L

    F2S
    2.06+.25: 2.31 D
    1.83L

    2H
    1.64T
    1.75 +.25: 2.00T

    4B2H
    2.57T
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

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