LWRC .45 PCC

[KneeShot]

@GJM if that thing is reliable w/ 45 Super there is the new “CQBG” Close Quarters Bear Gun!

[ranger]

When new PCC designs started showing up, DocGKR basically said, unless you had a pistol caliber in full auto, stick with a rifle caliber.

I was always fascinated with the cool factor of short pistol caliber carbines, and when they became available got some. Then USPSA made PCC a provisional division and I started competing with a PCC. Leaving aside ballistics, which is Gary’s wheelhouse, my practical experience is they aren’t a first choice for use besides training, where the PCC allows you to shoot steel that you can’t with a rifle and have less noise. Watching a wide variety of pistol caliber carbines in use in competition, they are far less reliable and durable than an AR in a rifle caliber. In terms of realistic defensive scenarios, the PCC gives you almost no shooting advantage over a red dot equipped pistol, and comes with a major disadvantage in how to conceal and deploy.

In contrast, a small .300 BLK seems very useful.

I no longer compete in USPSA. My question is "are PCCs unreliable in general" or "do USPSA competitors push the envelope to gain an advantage = PCCs become unreliable". I have good results shooting my SIG MPX SBR and even good results with two "cheap" PSA AR9 builds. I would suggest that a PCC would be much more effective in 95% of shooters vs a RDS pistol.

[Zincwarrior]

When new PCC designs started showing up, DocGKR basically said, unless you had a pistol caliber in full auto, stick with a rifle caliber.

I was always fascinated with the cool factor of short pistol caliber carbines, and when they became available got some. Then USPSA made PCC a provisional division and I started competing with a PCC. Leaving aside ballistics, which is Gary’s wheelhouse, my practical experience is they aren’t a first choice for use besides training, where the PCC allows you to shoot steel that you can’t with a rifle and have less noise. Watching a wide variety of pistol caliber carbines in use in competition, they are far less reliable and durable than an AR in a rifle caliber. In terms of realistic defensive scenarios, the PCC gives you almost no shooting advantage over a red dot equipped pistol, and comes with a major disadvantage in how to conceal and deploy.

In contrast, a small .300 BLK seems very useful.

We run outlaw competition matches using IDPAish rules and match stages in pistol bays (with more targets and more that are further out distance wise). Effectively anything can be put into a category and compete (I've seen garands...yahooo!). Its really fun. Up to about 30 yards, the PCC guys beat everyone by a significant margin. Interestingly, good pistol shooters can hold their own quite well against 5.56 and higher iron sight carbines and do decently against optics carbines. Its very eye opening (or Mark One optic opening...)

winning priority with "Equal shooter*":
Optic .22
Optic PCC
Optic Carbine
CO pistol
PCC
pistol / carbine.
Revolver
battle rifle
Mr. lever action
Angry wiener dog


**former SWAT guy on my team well represented this and ran an optic carbine and optic pistol. Won with both and the carbine was about ten 'seconds' better, primarily due to more accurate hits.

EDIT: Am I the only one who sees this an immediately thinks "hey HK is making a new MP5!"

[Grey]

It uses UMP mags so I dont blame you for your thoughts about HK.

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[Depmur]

During my time on the USMS Task Force they had the UMP which I thought was a formidable weapon. It was handy and with Winchester SXT I figured it would pack a punch. I also thought it would do better in a house than 5.56 as far as over penetration goes. I also enjoyed shooting it, cleaning was another matter though. A former co-worker runs the FB/IG site Lone Star Boars and has been using one of the SMG45’s on hogs the last month or so and is having pretty good success with it. He’s Alison on YouTube under the same name and probably has videos up of it. With that being said I think the price is a little over the top and if it drops some I would be a buyer.


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[TheRoland]

Up to about 30 yards, the PCC guys beat everyone by a significant margin.

I think this really depends on stage design and how hits are scored. In USPSA, the trend is for PCC to place high but usually not fill the top couple spots. In IDPA, it's really difficult for me to say, as there's just not many experienced PCC shooters near me, but bad PCC shooters are sure not beating pistol shooters who are merely OK.

I imagine you may be pretty harsh on "C" hits?

[David S.]

I’m inclined to think the ideal candidate for a defensive PCC is the “Old Man Gun.” Something with a bit more punch than a .22LR for someone recoil sensitive and/or unwilling to dedicate training to handguns or rifle caliber training. I think it makes much less sense for anyone, say, lower C class or better.

[Bart Carter]

... Last year I dumped a magazine through a 9mm AR pattern pistol with a brace and it was a softie but it had some sort of rotating bolt enhancement to mitigate recoil I think. The brand name escapes me.


+1 on the .300 BLK

Most likely a CMMG Guard

[Bart Carter]

...This highly-anticipated SMG model combines the company’s experience on the AR platform with an innovative delayed-blowback/short-recoil operating system to deliver a unique pistol-caliber carbine shooting experience."

I wonder how they did this. The CMMG Guard has had this out for quite a while and it works quite well.

[GJM]

I no longer compete in USPSA. My question is "are PCCs unreliable in general" or "do USPSA competitors push the envelope to gain an advantage = PCCs become unreliable". I have good results shooting my SIG MPX SBR and even good results with two "cheap" PSA AR9 builds. I would suggest that a PCC would be much more effective in 95% of shooters vs a RDS pistol.

Yes, to your first two questions. PCCs in general are less reliable than their rifle caliber cousins. USPSA competitors, in their effort to be more competitive, also make their PCCs less reliable with after market triggers, tuning to make them cycle softer, and using magazine extensions.

If you are going to the trouble to carry a long gun, why not make it in a rifle caliber?

As a PS on the MPX, I love the MPX and have three of them. There are pages and pages on Enos of the multitude of reliability problems mid to high round count MPX shooters have.