What Dead Cartridge Would You Revive?

[revolvergeek]

Ahhhh good thread; I love all the old stuff! Buncha thoughts....

The .25 Stevens or a similar .32 offering.
Okie John

Absolutely! From everything that I have read these made great small game guns without the noise and meat destruction that a 22 mag can cause. I also can't help but think that a long .25 or .32 rimfire would make an interesting middle ground alternative to the .22 / 32 / .38 pocket snub discussions that keep going around lately; rimfire so cheaper than .32 / .38, but bigger, heavier bullets than any of the 22s and less blast that the 22 mag. Load some 75-100 grain flat point bullets around 750- 800 out of a 2" and call it good.

9mm Browning Long
I think the 1903 FN was an under appreciated weapon. If more ordnance departments had noticed it, they could have saved a lot of money spent on complicated Lugers.

A retired Army officer / military historian friend of mine here in town has played around with one of these quite a lot and experimented with handloading for it. Nice solid feeling, flat compact gun that easily delivers .38 spl +P+ or lower end 9mmP energy. I doubt if most soft things would notice the difference between a round from this and regular 9mmP ball. All the charm of the Colt 1903/1908 but in a little more shootable size with better ballistics. I wish that I would have bought a couple years ago when Sarco had them; one to stay stock, and then send the other one off to get better sights, bigger safety and a bit of frame checkering.

.32 French Long, because it makes Gun Jesus smile.

That is actually available again from Steinel ammo. https://www.steinelammo.com/product-...5-french-long/

Again I think that this is an interesting little cartridge that could be modernized. They are loading an 100 FMJRN at 1000 fps, and a little .32 mag intended Gold Dot or XTP might do just fine at that velocity. Could be very interesting in the right platform (I wonder how many you could fit in a Glock 48 or LCP Max mag???)

.30 Mauser.

For one thing, I'd like to get to play with a new C96; for another, I imagine it would make a more capable SMG round for guns like the MP7. Mostly, I like little speedsters.

I tend to agree, but 7.62 Tok has a mixed record with FMJRN if you read accounts from the Korean war. Maybe with a JHP, FMJ flat point or a longer spitzer (maybe with an aluminum weight or an air space in the nose), it would be a entirely different prospect. I played around a little with a PPSH43C SBR and it was really light, fast and handy.

I’d like a .45AR loaded to be safe in Webleys. But I might have to just make my own.

Matt's Bullets makes something just for that; 260 Grain Round Nose Hollow Base Webley (.455) "This bullet is intended for the .455 Webley revolvers. It has been carefully designed to be as close as possible to the original design. As such, it is hollow base, and that fact means that it should work well in guns with undersize chambers or oversize bores. It is cast soft."

https://www.mattsbullets.com/index.p...ro3obd1hsadfh4

Or for the Manstopper option (but may be too small for many of The Old Ones): 240 Grain Hollow Base Wadcutter (.452)
https://www.mattsbullets.com/index.p...ro3obd1hsadfh4

For long gun

30-40 Krag, especially with the 220 RN loading. It is such an easy shooting cartridge, that will handle most North American game at reasonable distances, and won't kill you or your shoulder. I have a sporterized Krag carbine, and when my nieces and nephews were younger, I sued t take them shooting. And all of them, after shooting ARs, AKs, shotguns, .22LRs, and different hunting rifles, preferred the Krag to everything.

For handgun

I echo what someone said about the .32 HR mag. While still in production and not hard to find, I don't think there has been much T&E the past 10 years or so on optimizing HPs for self-defense through a snub. I wish some company would put just a tad bit of study into that.

I also would love to see an ammo manufacturer put a bit of time into looking at the heavy loads for 38 special, reminiscent of the old British 38-200 ammo. If 148 WC are decent in performance, and don't beat you up shooting through a snub, a part of my brain thinks something like a 200 gr WC moving at 750 fps-ish may be an even better solution.

I agree on all points. I have several Krags and they are great old guns. My maternal grandfather's best friend hunted a sporterized one with a fixed 6x Leupold all over African as a thin skinned game gun with cast 220 lead RN with just a little hollow point to it. Sadly the mold was lost, but the rifle still shoots beautifully.

Re heavy bullet .32 and .38 loads you might want to look around the castboolits forum for posts by LouisianaMan. Same gent that was experimenting with the 9mm Browning Long I mentioned above. He experimented with 115 RNFP in .32 long and up to 210 in various profiles in .38 S&W and .38 Special. LOTS of straight line penetration during informal testing with some of those loads with the flat nosed bullets. We have a custom 200 grain (sorta) Keith style LSW by ?NOE? I think and it is a beautiful shooting bullet out of everything that I have tried it in from 2- 16 inch barrels.

I want a modernized hot loaded .32 ACP round, so not completely a dead cartridge but nearly so, to go with it something the size of Ruger LCP max with a magazine of something like 16 or so rounds, just because.

Well the French pretty much did that with the 7.65 French long, and maybe there is also the 7x23mm Penna from Italy? Don't know if it every made it into production or not. I think the 7 mm Penna was meant as a competition cartridge and maybe never was actually produced, but it could be interesting in the right platform.

[Rick R]

Folks:

My nomination is for Col. Jeff Cooper's Super 9. Bonus points for it being chambered in a Lightweight Commander with S&W adjustable sights. I realize this is basically a 9X23 but I remember Col. Cooper writing about this being a great field gun and have wanted one ever since. Oh and a Bruce Nelson outside the waistband holster (basically a Milt Sparks 55 BN). The lightweight frame is realistically a bad idea but the concept in a Commander length gun is intriguing.

Does anyone have any idea what happened to Col. Cooper's handguns after he passed?

Bruce

I’d be very interested in a 9x23mm Lightweight Commander size gun. Basically 11 rounds of .357ish ammo in a flat gun with speedy reloads.

[Jim Watson]

Ahhhh good thread
Well the French pretty much did that with the 7.65 French long, and maybe there is also the 7x23mm Penna from Italy? Don't know if it every made it into production or not. I think the 7 mm Penna was meant as a competition cartridge and maybe never was actually produced, but it could be interesting in the right platform.

Yes, Penna was in cahoots with STI for a while. Seems like it would have been a major obstacle to get IPSC and USPSA to recognize such a small caliber.

I also cite the 7.92 VBR whenever the "Let's invent a .32 Super" post shows up. They did some shooting from a Glock testbed.

I had an interesting exchange with a nice Italian gentleman about the Tanfoglio FAR. Fast, Accurate, Reliable. Case length about 23mm like Super or Largo, but internal depth only like 9mm P; leaving an enormously thick head. Because the gun was straight blowback and the idea was that only the thick head would be exposed until the bullet was out of the barrel.

[MandoWookie]

Well, 7.62x54r, now that Russkie steel cased is kaput. My go to had been the Brown Bear or Wolf 203 grain soft points, as they are the only thing I have found that hits roughly POA in my 91/30. It is pretty much a plinker, but it was my first gun, so I have soft spot for it.

[fatdog]

I want to buy some .44 Henry Rimfire, black powder of course. If I could actually shoot it, I am sure I could convince myself to purchase an original yellow boy carbine. I have been close a couple of times when I found some real bargains, but knowing its eternal destiny would be a pure wall hanger, I could not convince myself to go for it.

[revolvergeek]

I’d be very interested in a 9x23mm Lightweight Commander size gun. Basically 11 rounds of .357ish ammo in a flat gun with speedy reloads.

A friend of mine carried a moderately worked over Series 70 Commander (Lightweight) in .38 Super for several years and it was shooting machine with Cobon 115 jhps, but didn't really like Silvertips. I am still kicking myself passing on a .38 super Sig 220 when Sports South had them on clearance back in 1992. I could have gotten one for $370, but that the time that was two weeks pay, sooooo.....

[MandoWookie]

Is rimfire ammunition cheaper just intrinsically, or is just perceived that way due to the main current example is .22lr?
Would a rimfire .38 actually be cheaper than centerfire, absent a century and a half of industry inertia behind behind it like the .22lr?

[OlongJohnson]

Rimfire cases are more difficult to reload. And you'd have to redesign guns to strike on the rim. I think the main barrier is that as pressures go up, it gets difficult to have a case that's soft enough to be deformed by the firing pin yet strong enough to resist blowing out. .22LR is ~15ksi if I remember right. Not sure even .38+P would work well as a rimfire.

[Jim Watson]

SAAMI maximum for .22 LR is 24000 psi, way up in .38 +P country.

In the other thread, I voted for a Modern Big Rimfire; make the gun with switchable firing pin like M53 or Contender.
Or reinvent the inside primed centerfire ca 1873 if that would save enough money to pay for tooling up.

[revolvergeek]

Is rimfire ammunition cheaper just intrinsically, or is just perceived that way due to the main current example is .22lr?
Would a rimfire .38 actually be cheaper than centerfire, absent a century and a half of industry inertia behind behind it like the .22lr?

As you say, *in volume* rimfire should cheaper and faster to make, and 22 has traditionally been cheaper because they make bagillions of rounds of it a year. To bring back a .38 rimfire doesn't make sense to me, but I just can't help but thing that Winchester .27 Nailgun case that they used as the base for the 17 Winchester Super Magnum would be cheap and easy to work with since that is already developed. I just read that the 17 WSM runs at 33k PSI, so pressure shouldn't be an issue. Blow the case our straight, cut it to .38 spl length, put a 7mm bullet about 75-85 grains in it and see what happens....