Doubts about 9mm

[Borderland]

Can we just block the ballistic flat earthers so we don't have to keep going through this shit, until they can supply a video of them doing a 10 second FAST?

This is a forum for teachers and students of the pistol, not students and teachers of caliber religion.

There are some LE, special ops and some spooks here to.

[jd950]

There are some LE, special ops and some spooks here to.

And being in such an occupation is not necessarily mutually exclusive with being "teachers and students of the pistol."

Any forum dealing with handguns and handgun ammunition will have these discussions/arguments occur. It is unavoidable short of severe moderation. Unfortunately, there are actually valid points to be discussed about caliber and bullet weight differences
and effectiveness in certain contexts, but such discussions quickly morph into the usual disagreements and thus rarely take place.

I have come close to trying to discuss calibers and bullet weights in the context of law enforcement use and intermediate barriers, and in particular auto glass and sheet metal and the increasingly common laminated side windows in vehicles, but I have resisted, knowing how such a discussion will quickly go off the rails.

[HopetonBrown]

There are some LE, special ops and some spooks here to.

I kindly suggest you think really hard about what being a teacher or student of the pistol means in the context the forum creators intended. Maybe take a 1 or 2 day break from posting to make sure you've spent enough time reflecting.

[HCM]

You state this like it's fact without presenting any evidence. I asked Doc Roberts this question, and he agreed with me (to a certain extent, with qualifications)

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....citation/page2

The actual expansion numbers make a difference. I used published expansion number from Speer for their gold dot loads in 9mm and .40. The frontal area difference was just under 40%. Other comparable load from other manufacturers might be different.

But if you have any REAL proof, from accepted sources, that greater expansion does NOT equal greater incapacitation capability, please put it out there.



This is actively nonsense. 9mm FMJ rounds were known terrible man stoppers. This greatly slowed 9mm's acceptance for LE. Of course LE had it's own terrible round, the .38 158 gr round nose lead bullet. Both did the same thing. They drilled small, clean holes all the way through the target, causing minimal damage, allowing the target to stay up and fighting. Overpenetration was a secondary negative effect. But the primary negative was lack of performance. 9mm didn't see much real LE use until expanding rounds that fed reliably started coming into use. Of course these had underpenetration issues (usually with 115 grain loads).

Anecdotal data about 9mm FMJ and 38 Spl Lead solids is just that- anectdotal. All hits are not created equal.

9mm NATO FMJ as used in the GWOT has proven quite effective in the hands of people who can actually shoot and hit vital structures. Over penetration is a problem but that is a separate issue from shot placement being THE factor in effectiveness.

Most military members, like most cops can’t shoot a handgun for shit. Same thing applies to .38 solids. Pat Rogers and other NYPD gun fight survivors I’m personally acquainted with all pretty much say the same thing about the NYPD’s prior Duty load, the 158 grain +P LSWC (not hollow point) - that it “worked pretty good if you could shoot.”

There are advantages to barrier blind JHP ammunition and it is preferable to FMJ. But it also flattens the differences in performance between service pistol calibers.

Marginal hits = marginal performance. People don’t want to hear that shot placement trumps magic bullets or that it’s the Indian, not the arrow because it means the outcome of lethal force encounters are always uncertain. What if I miss ?
Magic bullets / calibers are like a talisman that will make sure they come out ok. If a ballistic lucky rabbits foot makes you feel better do what you want, but that doesn’t negate decades of repeatable scientific terminal ballistics testing validated by correlation with actual shooting results.

[HCM]

There are some LE, special ops and some spooks here to.

And most are the “students and teachers of the pistol” within their respective groups. Those roles require a broad spectrum of skill sets beyond firearms.

That does highlight that those who do this for a living are all falling on one side and the other side is exclusively composed of arm chair theorists.

[Nephrology]

This is actively nonsense. 9mm FMJ rounds were known terrible man stoppers.

Lol, I've literally had my arm up to my elbow in the chest of a dude who got shot with 1x 9mm ball cartridge. He was pretty dead. Seemed like it worked to me!

[Hambo]

I know what I know and will never know what I don't want to know.

Honesty is the best policy.

Nothing much has changed in the pistol cartridge world unless I missed it.]

Evidently you missed the last twenty years of bullet design.

[revchuck38]

There are some LE, special ops and some spooks here to.

...and some "useta be" ones, too.

[spinmove_]

This is the pistol they should have purchased. Reasons are there. The 45 ACP worked for the military for 69 years. Nothing much has changed in the pistol cartridge world unless I missed it.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/bu...s-around-26551

I saw literally nothing in that article that tells me why .45Auto would have been a better choice over 9mm for the military. Maybe you can point it out to me?

[spinmove_]

9mm FMJ rounds were known terrible man stoppers.

I’m sorry, what? Can you show me how a person shot with a 9mm bullet in the same exact place as someone else shot with a .45Auto bullet is somehow less affected? Cause I’m pretty sure there are entire swaths of dudes in graves that would disgree with your assessment.

They’re just pistols guys. All they’re doing is poking holes of various slightly different sizes. That’s it.