FN 509 Tactical

[Redhat]

I really want the pistol mounted RDS to work at the level of reliability/capability needed and I am always interested in the new developments with same but I don't see (yet) how they're going to equal the carbine mounted set-ups until they can somehow decouple the sight from movement of the slide without a lot of bulk added. Shock absorption may enable it to last longer but I'm not sure that will be the final answer...it'll be interesting to see how the evolution goes.

[GJM]

It is interesting that I broke eight DP Pro optics since fall 2017 on a bunch of Glock MOS and Walther Q5 pistols, and have yet to break one of the four direct milled DP Pro optics I have on two CZ Shadow and two CZ P09 pistols.

[HCM]

It is interesting that I broke eight DP Pro optics since fall 2017 on a bunch of Glock MOS and Walther Q5 pistols, and have yet to break one of the four direct milled DP Pro optics I have on two CZ Shadow and two CZ P09 pistols.

A pistol slide is not a carbine. We are still learning. It certainly seems mounting spec is more important on pistol slides. Sooner or later someone will engineer a better mouse trap. The FN 509 tactical system might be it, or at least a step in the right direction. Time will tell.

[navyman8903]

No this is not true since at least 2005 almost all infantry who went outside the wire had RDS or ACOGs on M16/M4

What learning curve? Shooter looks at the target and puts the red dot on it, like in a video game, doesn't get any easier than that.

RDS on carbines used to only be for special folks - that is no longer the case. While some support troops may still run irons almost all combat arms troops who go outside the wire have optics/RDS. In the LE world, all federal LE I am aware of issue AR / M4 carbines with RDS across the board, FBI, DEA, ICE and CBP/USBP etc have tens of thousands of AR's with RDS and WML. It is simply the current professional standard and has been for the past 10 to 15 years.

RDS on handguns will, eventually be the current professional standard. With carbines it took about 10 years from special people first playing with Aimpoint 3000 and 5000s and Bushnell Holosights to the Army adopting the Aimpoint Comp M as the first M68 CCO in 1997 or 1998. They were pretty much universal with serious users between 5-10 years after that.

In the LE world, you will also get a percentage who will buy their own RDS if authorized. About 1/3 of my people have personally owned, agency approved handguns (POW). We currently have two approved optics ready POW models and await a list of authorized optics.

Teaching anyone to shoot a pistol well is harder and more time consuming that teaching them a long gun. Keep in mind teaching a new shooter to use an RDS is much easier than re-teaching someone who has ingrained iron sight shooting, particularly if they have ingrained it at the unconscious competence level. old dogs new tricks. The RDS learning curve doesn't really apply to new shooters.

From an agency perspective is an RDS helps my struggling shooters and shooters with aging eye qualify the RDS is much cheaper than the man hours for remedial training time.

So both of you understand, I was responding to HCM's comment about the M17's and M18's having an RDS or RMR mounted on the pistols. That will not be the case for the standard issue side arm for anyone who isn't special forces.

I'm not talking about rifles, or rifles down range.


Also HCM no, RDS's on pistols won't be the professional standard for about 20 years if it does happen at all. WILL is a very strong operative word bud.

[john c]

Also HCM no, RDS's on pistols won't be the professional standard for about 20 years if it does happen at all. WILL is a very strong operative word bud.

I disagree completely. I think we're on the cusp of the industry solving the engineering problem of making an optic that will work. There is a LOT of work being done in this space. Once the reliability crosses the "threshold", then there will be wholesale adoption. Once widespread adoption happens, prices will fall in half, for an optic that's twice as good as the current crop. At that point, every cop will have an optic on their pistol, either issued or private purchase.

The key reason for this has been mentioned: it's so much easier to train a new shooter to shoot on a optic equipped pistol. This saves money in training time, and down the road post shooting in the courtroom. What agency wants to admit to not equipping an officer with a device that increases hit probability by 50% or more? That's just adding zeros to the eventual settlement.

And I think this is going to happen almost as fast as iPhone adoption.

Granted, I know you're coming from a military perspective, and what you're saying may well be true. Pistols are one of the least lethal weapons in the arsenal, and are therefore an afterthought. There's little compelling reason to give a red dot to a tank or air crewman. But on the LE side, it's going to happen quickly.

[BigT]

How did carbine optics become the standard? By guys using every generation and finding the issues so the next gen was better. Not by saying the tech wasn't mature and shouldn't be used. I recall reading exactly the same sentiment about how we would never see optical sights on hard use carbines and rifles as they weren't robust enough. Fortunately people ignored that and kept learning the lessons and hence we find our selves were we are today.

Pistol optics are doing the same thing , and lets not pretend they just collapse if you look at them funny , nor that iron sights are imperious to damage. I agree with the sentiment that in the next 10 years or so that optics on pistols will be the norm amongst serious users.

[Trukinjp13]

Hopefully FN smoothed up the ambi release and maybe fixed the trigger. Because the ones I have felt and at my buddies shop the mag release is very hit or miss. I love the look of the gun though.

New mounting platform (hopefully works)
Coloring is cool
24 rnd mag is nice
Legitimate suppressor sights
Threaded barrel



Now as far as rds. The rmr 2 seems to work pretty damn good. Esp. When mounted correctly. Would you put your t2 in a shitty mount?

BREAK IT TIL YOU FIX IT. Someone is going to fix it but we need leo/mil/civvie to put these bitches through some hard use to figure out how to keep em alive. I know a few county cops and a couple state troopers who would love for the pistol rds to work. Esp. considering we went Glock for state police and local leo runs Glock as well.

I think one thing is skipped over quite often. Mil may use pistol as backup. But leo/civvie pistol is primary. It is what we carry all the time. It goes everywhere. Whether I am walking the dogs or going to the store. My rifle at the end of the day is secondary. Same as with leo, they are not writing a ticket with a m4 on their back. They are not going into wal mart for a shop lifter with a shotgun. Long gun is when shit goes sideways or we know danger is coming. So yeah, the pistol rds is a damn fine tool in the toolbox. Hopefully we can get more Snapon than Harbor Freight.

[Redhat]

It is interesting that I broke eight DP Pro optics since fall 2017 on a bunch of Glock MOS and Walther Q5 pistols, and have yet to break one of the four direct milled DP Pro optics I have on two CZ Shadow and two CZ P09 pistols.

So what do you suspect is the difference between what's going on between the Glock / Walther combo vs the CZ 's?

[Craig@SSD]

@Trukinjp13 Thank you for getting this back on topic.

I really like the 509 in general, so I'm excited to see them expand the line. Our 509 Tactical's should hopefully be here before the month's end.

[RAM Engineer]

Less debating over the RDS on handguns as a concept and more details on the subject pistol, please.