Massad Ayoob: The necessity of high capacity magazines.

[FrankB]

I can help but think the sig 365 platform has kind of solved the old size vs capability problem.

I mentioned that I still own a Glock 19, but didn’t mention the 3 Sig P365 pistols in my safe. I carried one of this for quite a while, but the revolvers are just more appealing to me in terms of aesthetics and shape. Carrying a 40 Oz 4” 6 round revolver could seem kind of silly when compared to the P365, but I really don’t feel the (considerable) extra weight while carrying.
🤷🏼🤷🏼🤷🏼🤷🏼🤠

[Stephanie B]

then would throw complete curveballs like landing without certain instruments that were normally taken for granted, or having a portion of the windshield covered up by "a passenger's vomit" (something that actually happened to him, apparently).

I took a checkride at an FBO once time, where the CFI came out with some stuff and proceeded to cover everything on the panel of that Cessna except the oil pressure and temperature gauges. It was an interesting and valuable experience.

[RevolverJIM]

I took several rides with an FAA examiners years ago; passed them all first time around but the examiner taught me something valuable on each and every ride!

[TCinVA]

Forgive me if its already been mentioned here, as I've bounced around this thread a bit, and not read every post, but I recall TLG had a strong preference for 10+ rounds in a gun carried for defensive purposes. He felt 10 was really a minimum, and wanted more if at all possible. One of the later posts he made before his passing was him exploring extended base pads for Glocks mags, IIRC. And he really was a stickler for first round hits on small targets, hence the focus on the "press out" etc.

Todd liked capacity because even though his signature test includes a reload as part of the test, that test was a test of the skillsets he was going to work on in AFHF. He understood that speed reloads don't happen under fighting conditions the way they happen on a range. One of the things he would do in class is have someone else set up your magazines so you didn't know when a reload was coming to see what impact that had on your times. Surprise, surprise, it took longer to realize you were out of ammo when you didn't know when it was coming. Even longer if you were working with some sort of cognitive load like doing math to shoot the right number target on the PTC target or if someone set up your magazines for you on something like the Casino Drill.

There are an exceptionally tiny number of people on this planet who can deliver a 2 second reload in concealment gear. That number shrinks to almost zero when we factor in a reload they don't know is coming or that happens when they are loaded with something else to focus on. And 2 seconds is a long-ass time in a gunfight.

Todd was big on quantified performance with a handgun, but he also had lots of sense about the realities of fighting with a gun vs. competing with one. A lot of goofy shit has had GUNFIGHTING slapped on it to shield it against any sort of objective measurement that would reveal it as such. But there are still incredibly significant differences that exist and need to be accounted for, especially when teaching people who are looking to protect themselves vs. compete.

The "press out" is a good example of a technique that works because it works.

If we could get people to get a good grip on the gun from the draw and get it up in front of their eyes to shoot, the accuracy rate in shootings and fights would soar. The programs that produce the highest hit rates focus on training precisely those things.

Competition shooters running from competition rigs will tell you that their "index" draw is faster. I'm not a top level competitor so I don't argue with top level competitors about what top level competitors need to do in competition.

But in defensive use, an L shaped presentation with a lot of visual information about the gun going into the intended target is much, much more useful as living, breathing targets tend to move a hell of a lot more than competition targets and the background of said target tends to change rapidly. Our target area is smaller and tenths of a second are not as valuable as higher levels of precision in shot placement. It's a different form of shooting.

I use the press out in my draw, but not as Todd taught it anymore.

Todd essentially put the front sight on what he was intending to hit and rotated the rear sight up to where the front sight was. It fits in with the "front sight focus" doctrine. A couple of years ago at a Tim Herron class I realized that approach was really backwards.

Now when I present the gun, I get the gun level in front of my eye as quickly as possible so I can see through my rear sight window. Or optic. It makes the question of dots or irons essentially moot as the presentation gives you either sighting system in front of your eye sooner allowing you to "see" more and make a better shot.

Had Todd's evolution not been cut short by fighting with cancer, I'm certain he would have made the same change in his process, too.

[Clusterfrack]

I use the press out in my draw, but not as Todd taught it anymore.

Todd essentially put the front sight on what he was intending to hit and rotated the rear sight up to where the front sight was. It fits in with the "front sight focus" doctrine. A couple of years ago at a Tim Herron class I realized that approach was really backwards.

Now when I present the gun, I get the gun level in front of my eye as quickly as possible so I can see through my rear sight window. Or optic. It makes the question of dots or irons essentially moot as the presentation gives you either sighting system in front of your eye sooner allowing you to "see" more and make a better shot.

Had Todd's evolution not been cut short by fighting with cancer, I'm certain he would have made the same change in his process, too.

This is a valuable point. I see a lot of range theatrics involving the press out: "slow is smooth, smooth is... SLOW". Like really slow. Or a glacial press out with firing started in compression, with a shitty grip and recoil control.

[blues]

And don't outrun your headlights. Know WTF you are aiming at...and keep your finger off the trigger until it's go time.

Capacity and extra ammo are great...but situational awareness and recognition cannot be over-stressed. (I know this is nothing new to this crowd, but it can't be repeated enough, imho...and I hope I'll be forgiven for doing so.)

[Jim Watson]

A younger Mas once reported that 8-10 rounds seemed optimum; more than 6 a definite benefit, but a dozen or more leading to spraying.

[Clusterfrack]

...a dozen or more leading to spraying.

Maybe lack of training is what leads to spraying?

[blues]

Maybe lack of training is what leads to spraying?

I suppose spraying can be looked at from the angles of both firing more rounds than necessary as well as firing (somewhat) indiscriminately at the intended target.

I'm not going to opine on the training, since I'm out of the game...but a cursory review of so many LE shootings posted here and youtube demonstrate just how widespread such responses are.

By comparison, the cool levelheaded reaction by the officers who are masters of both their emotions and their duty weapons stand out in great relief from the norm.

There is as much to be learned from those who do not fire their weapons, as those who do. (Imho.)

[TCinVA]

A younger Mas once reported that 8-10 rounds seemed optimum; more than 6 a definite benefit, but a dozen or more leading to spraying.

Spraying is harder to do with a double action revolver.

Literally. The longer, heavier trigger pull limits how fast most people can press the trigger. It's not to say people never ran through their cylinder as fast as they could without effect, but it took more time to do it. That half second per shot cadence we've heard a lot about as a fighting methodology was sort of enforced by the equipment. About .30 is as fast as I can press through a DA trigger. My finger just doesn't move any faster. If I'm paying any attention at all to what I'm doing on the trigger, it goes to about 1/2 a second. Those times are cut in half on a striker-fired polymer gun.

Those tenths may not seem significant, but when they stack up it can be enough time for the limited processing power of the human mind in a novel situation to catch up to what's happening.

Similarly, the sheer weight of a DA revolver's trigger makes it harder to have a truly shit grip on the revolver and still successfully work the trigger to the point of ignition.

If you watch a lot of police body cam footage, you will see people presenting the gun to their chest or their chin with a bad grip and it's no wonder they struggle to make hits. Just getting the gun gripped and getting it up in front of their eyes would dramatically increase hit rates. But it doesn't seem like a lot of programs actually understand how to teach people to do that.