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Thread: "Why the .45 ACP Failed"

  1. #151
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    RE: Switch to 124 +P and 124 NATO

    Or I could switch to 230/230...Since forty-five is superior to the metric foreign commie shit.

    Actually I have a couple of hundred rounds of of 124 +P HST and I’m debating whether or not to spring for a case of 124-grain GECO which runs right at NATO velocity. But I decided I have enough HST regardless if 124 or 147 to see me through a bit.

    So I’m leaning towards funneling that money into some other needs. More STI mags and powder and primers.

  2. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    124-grain GECO which runs right at NATO velocity
    Good to know, thanks -- the Winchester is usually available and cheap, but I'm always sniffing around for warm practice ammo. I had a case of IMI NATO 124 that was good stuff; it clean and accurate, and velocity ran in between Lawman and Winchester on the low/high ends. I haven't seen it available since, but I'd buy it again.

  3. #153
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Mac View Post
    Good to know, thanks -- the Winchester is usually available and cheap, but I'm always sniffing around for warm practice ammo. I had a case of IMI NATO 124 that was good stuff; it clean and accurate, and velocity ran in between Lawman and Winchester on the low/high ends. I haven't seen it available since, but I'd buy it again.
    Target Sports USA got some recently, it’s $8.99/box and is ostensibly about 1175 fps.

  4. #154
    Member That Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SAWBONES View Post
    Back when Lt. Col. Jeff Cooper could state that a particular described tactical job could have been handled with alacrity by a competent pistolero with a .45 Auto, but "not with any nine" (as he asserted), he was addressing things as they were with FMJ and the JHP ammunition of the time (~1980-1990).

    With bullet engineering development since that time, we all know that terminal ballistic performance of many common handgun rounds has become quite similar
    Cooper also had a pretty strong opinion on the .223 Remington being a wimpy little poodle shooter, a proper military rifle having to be a .308, and has written that since the Ruger Mini-14 has a similar operating mechanism as a Garand, it is more reliable than an AR-15... Do you have more basis for your opinion than the writings of one stubborn old man? (Who, it must be admitted, was a great writer... I have several of his books myself. But his opinions on calibre matters never seemed to be entirely founded in purely rational thought.)

    What makes a .45 slug significantly more effective than a 9mm slug? Is it the less than 1/10" width difference? Or the heavier mass - although 9mm bullets have enough ass behind them to break bones and penetrate deep?

    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    124-grain GECO which runs right at NATO velocity.
    Is that a particular load from Geco, or just plain 124gr ball? If the latter, it never seemed particularly warm to me. I do have to admit I never chronographed the stuff, though.

    Edit: the Geco 124gr ball I last shot left this white sand-like stuff inside the gun. I've switched back mainly to S&B ball since then. It no longer has the accuracy issues that originally made me switch from it, and does not leave unusual debris inside my guns when I shoot it. Powerwise, both seem about the same to me.
    Last edited by That Guy; 09-10-2019 at 06:31 AM.

  5. #155
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    @That Guy - Current S&B 124-grain ball runs around 1100 fps from my 4" PX4. That's faster than US-produced ball but slower than NATO-spec.

  6. #156
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by That Guy View Post
    What makes a .45 slug significantly more effective than a 9mm slug? Is it the less than 1/10" width difference? Or the heavier mass - although 9mm bullets have enough ass behind them to break bones and penetrate deep?
    Remembering that 147gr wasn't always a thing (designed for SMGs originally, IIRC) the available options were roughly half the weight of common .45 ball. What I've seen on the streets from cheap ball ammo is the lightweight 9mm fragments much easier while the slower, fatter .45 sticks together and retains enough mass to keep on driving through. Even it sheds it's jacket it stays heavy enough to matter.

    A decent example was a fellow who irritated a group during a dope buy. He ran out into the passenger seat of his waiting ride, an extended cab pickup, and took off. At least two shooters then lit the back of the truck up. From the crime scene, they were nearly shoulder to shoulder so distances and angles were about the same. Both were using bulk ball ammo, one a 9mm and one a .40. The 9mm hit the rear window, fragmented, and while the fragments were capable of causing injuries, they were shallow and nothing that was debilitating. Basically peppered the backs of the occupants and couldn't get through the seat backs. The .40 shed it's jacket but retained enough mass to get through the head rest and sever the passenger's spine very near the base of the skull. Note a proper bullet for either cartridge would have penetrated further, although obviously the .40 ball was "good enough" in this instance.

    I think it's evident at this point that bullet design matters more than caliber, which is why all the common duty calibers are fungible for real world use.
    Last edited by BehindBlueI's; 09-10-2019 at 06:51 AM. Reason: cleaning up grammar
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  7. #157
    Hoplophilic doc SAWBONES's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by That Guy View Post
    Cooper also had a pretty strong opinion on the .223 Remington being a wimpy little poodle shooter, a proper military rifle having to be a .308, and has written that since the Ruger Mini-14 has a similar operating mechanism as a Garand, it is more reliable than an AR-15...
    Hello That Guy.
    Dunno about reliability, but my Ruger Mini-14 definitely (and quite consistently) strung shots vertically, and I traded it in on something else. I DID admire its simple Garand-like operation, though. Ruger could have made it a much better gun.

    Quote Originally Posted by That Guy View Post
    Do you have more basis for your opinion than the writings of one stubborn old man? (Who, it must be admitted, was a great writer... I have several of his books myself. But his opinions on calibre matters never seemed to be entirely founded in purely rational thought.)

    What makes a .45 slug significantly more effective than a 9mm slug? Is it the less than 1/10" width difference? Or the heavier mass - although 9mm bullets have enough ass behind them to break bones and penetrate deep?
    I never refer to my elders or those who've gone before me, and done quite worthy and valuable things, in pejorative terms.
    I think it's disrespectful, and find it annoying when other (almost always younger) people do it. But I'm an old fart.

    Yes, Col. Cooper was a man of strong opinions, based at least in part on experience. I appreciate him, and respect his legacy.

    You'll note I didn't say I agreed with him, at least not in the degree to which he expressed his preference for the .45 Auto, now that bullet engineering has produced approximate parity of terminal ballistic effect for the best JHP designs in popular calibers.

    Rather, I agreed that the FMJ in .45 was superior in terminal effect to the 9mm.
    I believe this is due mostly to its greater momentum. If you doubt that there's a difference, shoot swinging steel and note the marked difference in movement of the plates on a "rotator" target. I can fully rotate the swingarm with 4 shots of .45 Auto 230gr FMJ, but cannot do it at all, regardless of how many times I (accurately) hit the plates with 9mm 115gr JHP. (I haven't tried this with 124gr and 147gr 9mm.)

    How much momentum contributes to terminal ballistic effectiveness in tissue is unknown. Those who look only or predominantly at gelatin results will note only that FMJ penetration is deep and that wound tracks are similar for the two calibers in question. Anecdotal military experiences from WWII and since however suggest that the .45 Auto has been quite noticeably superior to 9mm FMJ in performance against enemy combatants.

    We all like to support our preferences for a given choice as being "just as good as" the alternatives.
    In the case of the comparison between .45 Auto FMJ and 9mm FMJ, I have an opinion and preference based on momentum differences, hence my statement about what I'd carry if restricted to guns of lower capacity and FMJ ammunition.

    For terminal effectiveness comparisons with regard to JHP, I've already stated that I agree that differences are sufficiently minor (though still detectable, as seen with penetration & expansion data in gelatin for e.g., Federal's HST 124gr 9mm and 230gr .45 Auto JHPs) as not to supersede the benefits of the lighter weight, higher capacity and lessened recoil of guns of the 9mm sort, and that such is what I do indeed carry.

    Best.
    "Therefore, since the world has still... Much good, but much less good than ill,
    And while the sun and moon endure, Luck's a chance, but trouble's sure,
    I'd face it as a wise man would, And train for ill and not for good." -- A.E. Housman

  8. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    Remembering that 147gr wasn't always a thing (designed for SMGs originally, IIRC)
    Suppressed ones, IIRC.

    And I have pretty much switched to 9mm, but 147gr just seems weird to me. I should probably try it some before I make up my mind...

  9. #159
    Site Supporter DocGKR's Avatar
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    Every large West Coast LE agency that has used good 9 mm 147 gr has had superb terminal effects; remember, if it is appears weird but works, it is not really weird.....
    Facts matter...Feelings Can Lie

  10. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Tokarev View Post
    Dr Bill England wrote this quip in regards to an article in the September 2019 “Blue Press”.


    Getting settled back in at home and the "Blue Press" was waiting for me and I read the article by Duane Thomas. Interested but deeply flawed article. But as always, the purpose is typically to sell stuff, not logically develop a thesis. And telling people what they want to hear is always a good way to sell stuff.

    The crux of his article is in the first paragraph: "Results from the street have shown that there's no real difference in overall stopping performance between the popular service autopistol cartridges. Once we accept that 9mm and .45 work the same, it's awfully hard to justify choosing a more heavily recoiling gun carrying less ammo, when we could be choosing a more lightly recoiling gun with more ammo.

    This article desperately needs footnotes to support his premises. I'm a pretty widely-read guy and have been following the wound ballistics literature for nearly 40 years. That first sentence could have come from a political platform: an appeal to authority and invention of supporting evidence and undefined terms. "Results from the street" needs to be documented. I have not seen a good scientific study supporting this conclusion. I'm sure Marshall and Sanow are good guys, but collecting anecdotes isn't science, nor is asking your experienced street cop buddy what he thinks. "Stopping performance" is similarly elastic like Bill Clinton talking about "investing in America."

    What do we need a bullet to do? We need a bullet to penetrate the target and damage vital structures, leading to rapid incapacitation. If we really need instant incapacitation, we need the bullet to destroy the high spinal cord or penetrate into the brain, but we better be damn fine shots to make this happen. To get the penetration we need relatively heavy for caliber bullets, as ably demonstrated by McPherson. Our probability of damaging those vital structures and rapidly causing exsanguination is improved by increasing the diameter of the penetrating bullet, hence the desire for expansion if it does not overly impede penetration, as the area will increase by the square of the diameter and the rate of exsanguination will be increased by approximately the fourth power.

    Does size really matter? Of course it does. Let's first consider a thought experiment. Let's imagine a target, be it a whitetail deer or a 250# felon trying to kill you with a knife. First consider a handgun firing a sewing needle at sufficient velocity to completely penetrate the target but not expanding. Second, consider a .22 rimfire. Third, consider a 9mm 124gr JHP. Finally, consider a 12-gauge slug. Any knowledgeable shooter would quickly concede that these four projectiles would cause tissue destruction and hemorrhage in increasing proportion to the size of the projectile. However, many seem to think that there is a "magic zone" somewhere in the neighborhood of 9mm to .45 ACP where the slope of this line suddenly becomes zero.

    OK, discount the thought experiment. For a useful scientific study, we cannot simply look at gelatin or just corpses. Doing a prospective study where a couple hundred humans get shot with different cartridges won't pass the institutional review board or get funded by NIH. But there are good retrospective studies that do this. But to be a good study, it needs to avoid selection criteria that influence the results. I was impressed with the recent Braga study in JAMA:

    https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...rticle/2688536

    Yes, this was a "Guns are bad and we should ban them study" and clearly the authors don't understand the difference between caliber and cartridge chambering and designations. But the beauty of the study is, they counted everybody that got shot where the cartridge could be identified and they used non-arbitrary end points of "dead" and "alive". And for commonly utilized cartridges like 9mm and .45 ACP, they had a sufficient number of shootings to demonstrate the trend. Smaller calibers were less likely to result in fatal injuries than larger calibers, and this included the 9mm/.45 ACP range.

    No, the results are perfectly linear. For better data, you'll need more than 367 victims. I don't think the 10mm Auto is death ray, even though it was 2/2. And I'm not switching to a .32 ACP even though it was about 50/50. I suspect the pocket pistols were likely pushed against the victim's chest or head when fired.

    So why is the 9mm Parabellum becoming so popular? First, it is not a bad defensive round as the Braga study demonstrates (but don't try and con me that it is just as effective as a .45 ACP). The pistols are generally smaller, lighter, and less expensive. Ammunition is cheaper. It's easier to "qualify" recruits with a 9mm, but don't pretend that this administrative benefit is correlated to effectiveness. It's easier to shoot faster with a 9mm so it is of course more popular in shooting games like IPSC and IDPA.

    A 1911 is an aficionado's pistol, I'll concur. It requires a little more skill, experience, and knowledge to run and maintain this platform than a striker-fired 9mm. Given that, it can certainly reliably feed modern JHP. But most people don't want to be bothered. As the sage opined, "We all have to find our own salvation."

    It is certainly possible to kill a Cape buffalo with a .303 British rifle. But enough people got killed trying this that most African countries have a cartridge minimum starting around the .375 H&H. Yes, it is based on muzzle energy but it really comes down to adequate bullet diameter, construction, and velocity to reliably penetrate and incapacitate Mbogo. And the .375 will do this. But you'll be challenged to find many professional hunters that will claim it works "just as well" as a .458 or .470, given a shooter who can place shots accurately with either rifle.

    The .45 ACP does have more recoil than a 9mm, but not so much that my wife or 13-year-old son could not happily shoot it proficiently and accurately during training and practice. But "training" and "practice" are also in short supply these days. So if you chose to carry a 9mm pistol, please feel free. It is not a bad choice and if you like it and practice with it, that is a good thing.

    Please don't start your argument by claiming it is "just as effective as a .45 ACP." But I figure in another decade, we'll see plenty of articles lauding the mighty .380 ACP and how it is just as effective as a 9mm with modern bullets.

    The .45 did not fail. It's still around and living strong. The 9 MM is cheaper, it's easier to shoot and it can hold 20 rounds of ammo. This makes it better for spray n police shooting. It's better for competitions, 20 rounds of low recoil ammo, it's easier for girls to shoot too.

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