"Why the .45 ACP Failed"

[RJ]

+1 what a great illustration of the DB point about that large orange to grapefruit sized sweet spot - centerline - that is needed for desired result.

Yeah he made that point in the P&S Snubby Podcast I listened to past weekend.

I’m thinking of designing a shooting target with like 4” circles or something like that to practice on. Or maybe just the black on a B8 bull. And then shoot drills where a miss is a fail.

[03RN]

Yeah he made that point in the P&S Snubby Podcast I listened to past weekend.

I’m thinking of designing a shooting target with like 4” circles or something like that to practice on. Or maybe just the black on a B8 bull. And then shoot drills where a miss is a fail.

I like to use index cards. 3x5 is about the size of the human heart

[JAD]

While anecdotes are fun, we have pretty good data to understand the merits of different cartridges. DocGKR’s data is comprehensive, and by far the most compelling portion is a comparison of the permanent cavities left by modern loadings of the major service cartridges— all of which being effectively identical.

The effects of pistol bullets on people are predicted by their ability to make holes in people. If it makes the same hole in length and diameter, it has the same effect.

Doc has two caveats that matter:

-If it doesn’t go deep enough it won’t work. Don’t be fooled by the fact that 9 and 45 are similar enough not to worry about into thinking that 9 and 380 have the same relationship.

-40 and 45 do better after penetrating barriers. That might matter. To me it means that an 8 round 45 and a 10 round 9 are a wash if I place bullets as well with either.

[Joe in PNG]

There's a few other things I have read here, and hopefully our SME's can expound further or correct me on this:

-the round profile of the classic .45 ACP ball is known to deflect off of bone

-likewise, 230 grn .45 ACP has a bit of a reputation for not expanding reliably. Seems it's a bit too heavy and slow.

[MGW]

I like 45 a lot. If I’m honest about it though the reason I like 45 doesn’t really have anything to do with the cartridge. I like pistols that shoot 45 well. The 1911, HK45c (and maybe the USP), and the Sig P220 are some of my favorite pistols. They’re accurate, fun to shoot, fit me well, and I shoot them well. The recoil usually slows me down enough to make more accurate hits on more difficult shots. I have no illusions that it’s better than a similar pistol in 9mm or even more practical. They’re just interesting to me.

Not everything has to be better to enjoy it.

[GJM]

While we are discussing caliber, I think it is really a platform issue.

The 1911 is optimized for .45 acp, while most of the best polymer pistols are optimized for 9mm. If your heart is in 1911 pistols, .45 makes perfect sense. If you prefer polymer, 9mm is probably the way to go.

Bill England is a smart, thoughtful guy, with the wound ballistics perspective of a physician and an extensive training background in handguns and rifles. I do believe he prefers the 1911. At times, I have joked that die in the wool 1911 guys believe the .45 cartridge performs better when launched from a 1911.

I love .45, but in the form of a USP launching Super loads.

[BehindBlueI's]

I like 45 a lot.

I do to, both Auto and Colt. I like reloading them, I like shooting them, I like the P220/P245 a lot, etc. I don't think it's a wrong choice by any stretch. It's just not a magic death ray compared to other common duty calibers (which I know wasn't your intention with your post, just saying).

[BehindBlueI's]

There's a few other things I have read here, and hopefully our SME's can expound further or correct me on this:

-the round profile of the classic .45 ACP ball is known to deflect off of bone

-likewise, 230 grn .45 ACP has a bit of a reputation for not expanding reliably. Seems it's a bit too heavy and slow.

Round nose anything deflects easier. I've seen .45 ride the skull, ride ribs, etc. I've seen the same behavior from 9mm ball, .380 ball, etc. Anecdotally .40 ball seems less likely to ride bone, probably because of the flat point of even cheap ammo (and remember most real world shootings are with cheap ammo).

Doc can probably answer better than me on the current state of .45 duty ammo. IIRC, Gold Dot and Winchester Ranger were both a pretty reliable performer.

[Half Moon]

The whole 38 Long Colt versus 45 Long Colt seems like a red herring.

1) As I understand it, troops during the Moro Rebellion not only panned the 38 Long Colt as a stopper but also the. 30-40 Krag. While not an ought 6, the Krag was a serious rifle cartridge regularly used for big game, including Brown Bear and Elk, in its time. Performance against Moros hopped up on religion and drugs is probably a worst case scenario similar to alleged PCP effects on modern criminals. (Or maybe the Army should have gone back to the 45-70 in rifles?)

2) The Thompson - Le Garde tests coming out of the Philippines experience were essentially rigged by the Army to select .45 caliber. An objective review basically says any hand gun cartridge is a poor cattle killer outside close range head shots.

3) The 38 Long Colt, in a full size service revolver, is roughly equivalent to a modern 38 Special snub shooting wadcutters ( except round nosed which is a down tick for deflection). What this says about a much faster 9mm Parabellum in similar service size pistols is questionable particularly with modern expanding bullets.

4) Unless I'm looking at them wrong, the photos shown appear to be through and through wounds. What more do you want from a non-expanding cartridge? Shot placement trumps poorly placed hits and even moreso misses.

I'm still mostly a .45 guy based on personal history (I grew up on 1911's and carried them in the service) leading to a preference but I don't think a bad comparison tells us anything.

[Joe in PNG]

And again, look at what happened during the Battle of Barrington.

Baby Face Nelson took a .45acp slug to the liver, but was not knocked down, nor even significantly slowed. He was still advance and shoot two agents, drive their car, take their guns & ammo, and get well away before dying.

So much for "they all fall to hardball"- but "shot placement trumps caliber" does yet still apply.