Sub second concealed Israeli Draws

[JCN]

Every now and then something genuinely makes me chuckle...

VCD asked our new member about his training resume/who he has trained under, referencing people he has trained under himself.

The reply is to name some known names in the industry, however, with the caveat that "technically" he has not done any actual training with them, but he has seen them on Youtube!

I don't know if I have told you guys, I am a three time combat vet. I have seen Rambo 1, Rambo 2 AND Rambo 3! I am pretty salty.

Just wait for my videos!

Dunno man. In car racing we have lots of guys with long training resumes.

They know a lot of stuff, but they’re still slow.

My tongue in cheek reply was meant to elicit a chuckle. I think you missed my sarcasm. It was on purpose.

This forum places a lot of value on knowledge, but that’s different from the ability to apply it.

A class is great, but without the hard work and dedication to actually master the material all you have is a pedigree.

I would like to see your videos.

[JCN]

It’s also a brave new world and distance learning and taped lectures are a thing.
Heck, even in school back in the day you sat in a big lecture hall and really there was no difference between watching it on the projector versus watching it on a computer now.

Guns and racing are nice in that there are objective performance metrics.

Can talk all you want, but if you’re slow you’re slow. Doesn’t matter how many classes you’ve taken.

[JCN]

Also note this is in “Marksmanship and Gun Handling,” not “Tactics and Training.”

It was a silly video I made for a different forum because I had never seen any videos of someone doing a fast empty chambered concealed draw and thought it was interesting.

I carry chambered and don’t advocate empty chamber for people experienced in gun handling, but I have no issue if someone is new to guns and carries empty chamber in the beginning.

[Lost River]

It’s also a brave new world and distance learning and taped lectures are a thing.
Heck, even in school back in the day you sat in a big lecture hall and really there was no difference between watching it on the projector versus watching it on a computer now.

Guns and racing are nice in that there are objective performance metrics.

Can talk all you want, but if you’re slow you’re slow. Doesn’t matter how many classes you’ve taken.

There might be just a little bit of difference between watching youtube videos and actually getting first hand, in person instruction from an accomplished professional who can give feedback. That instructor can tell you when you are being dangerous, developing bad habits from the start that you may not even notice, doing things correctly/incorrectly, building a foundation on shooting skills that were never developed properly to begin with..

[JCN]

There might be just a little bit of difference between watching youtube videos and actually getting first hand, in person instruction from an accomplished professional who can give feedback. That instructor can tell you when you are being dangerous, developing bad habits from the start that you may not even notice, doing things correctly/incorrectly, building a foundation on shooting skills that were never developed properly to begin with..

Yes, but like I said. The proof is in the pudding.

This is me when I’m not goofing around.







If you rely on other people to critique your form rather than being self-critical and figuring it out from good role models, you’re being handed a fish rather than learning how to fish.

Why does it take someone with terrible form to need an instructor to tell them their mechanics are garbage?

Video camera and self-assessment skills go a long way.

Can you tell me what bad habits I need to correct?

Can I see a demonstration of your educated abilities and how much better they are?

[HCM]

It’s also a brave new world and distance learning and taped lectures are a thing.
Heck, even in school back in the day you sat in a big lecture hall and really there was no difference between watching it on the projector versus watching it on a computer now.

Guns and racing are nice in that there are objective performance metrics.

Can talk all you want, but if you’re slow you’re slow. Doesn’t matter how many classes you’ve taken.

Speaking of objective performance measures, speed is important (as are objective measurement and standards for speed) but accuracy is equally important.

Fast or slow is relative. A 1.5 draw to a full size silhouette, or even an A / -0 zone at 3 or 5 yards is slow but the same 1.5 draw to a 3x5 card at 7 yards is excellent performance.

Some old guy in the desert once said something about the balance of speed and accuracy. You need to work both. Fast noise doesn't hurt anyone. The goal is fast hits on realistic size targets, not just being fast or just making hits.

People like to emphasize what they are good at. In this thread: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....to-new-thread) we argued the value of timers to an accuracy guy. I would posit that accuracy standards are worthy of an equal argument.

[JCN]

Speaking of objective performance measures, speed is important (as are objective measurement and standards for speed) but accuracy is equally important.

Fast or slow is relative. A 1.5 draw to a full size silhouette, or even an A / -0 zone at 3 or 5 yards is slow but the same 1.5 draw to a 3x5 card at 7 yards is excellent performance.

Some old guy in the desert once said something about the balance of speed and accuracy. You need to work both. Fast noise doesn't hurt anyone. The goal is fast hits on realistic size targets, not just being fast or just making hits.

People like to emphasize what they are good at. In this thread: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....to-new-thread) we argued the value of timers to an accuracy guy. I would posit that accuracy standards are worthy of an equal argument.

That video I posted was a draw and three shots in the -0 at 50 feet in 1.68 seconds.

This was 10 shots from a P365 offhand at 10 yards.


This was to a 2” head



And this was 100 yards unsupported, 5 shots.



Speed without accuracy is meaningless, I agree.

That’s what I like about USPSA classifiers. Speed and accuracy needed to achieve the “M” level (where I’m currently).

[vcdgrips]

You were born with faster than average reflexes.

You have clearly worked to be fast and stay fast.

You are faster than me.

When you say”...but I have no issue if someone is new to guns and carries empty chamber in the beginning.”
A comment like this is indicative of a practitioner who does not know what they do not know.

Any serious practitioner of a bodily kinesthetic activity, sport or martial art, to include the uniquely American art martial art of pistol craft, who is merely self taught or a video student, is not going to be able to perform to their highest potential absent hands on instruction.

Would you pay Manny Bragg or Robbie Leatham 600.00 for an 8 hr training session?

[JCN]

You were born with faster than average reflexes.

You have clearly worked to be fast and stay fast.

You are faster than me.

When you say”...but I have no issue if someone is new to guns and carries empty chamber in the beginning.”
A comment like this is indicative of a practitioner who does not know what they do not know.

Any serious practitioner of a bodily kinesthetic activity, sport or martial art, to include the uniquely American art martial art of pistol craft, who is merely self taught or a video student, is not going to be able to perform to their highest potential absent hands on instruction.

Would you pay Manny Bragg or Robbie Leatham 600.00 for an 8 hr training session?

I agree with you.

But I’m not a serious practitioner and I’m not looking to perform at my highest potential.

It’s just entertainment and a recreational hobby for me.

I have a day job, a wife and a kiddo that I all love. I dabble with guns in my free time (which isn’t much).

When I stopped racing 5 years ago, I was looking for a different hobby.

I never shot a real gun before 2015.

Because this is an interesting discussion, hear me out.

I also used to play music fairly seriously in a previous life.

A fifth grader would not benefit very much from Itzhak Perlman lessons, even though he could say that he took lessons from Itzhak Perlman.

Lessons are great, but how much someone gets out of a lesson depends on where they are at, what they internalize and how they apply those lessons.

So listing training resumes in a technical sport doesn’t mean much to me if people aren’t fast and accurate.

IMO, someone should post their targets/videos AND post their resumes.

I completely agree that I would love a class with Leatham right now, but I really don’t care enough to travel and be away from my wife and kid.

I also agree that I would love classes on tactics that aren’t something you can know what you don’t know.

But mechanics? Efficiency is fast and less moving parts helps accuracy. That’s something you can work out yourself if you really pay attention.

As to empty chamber carry, it’s a preference thing for some people and better than leaving the gun at home or injuring themselves if they’re not willing to put in the time. I do not think it’s optimal in a situation where you’re surprised and don’t have time to “make ready,” but I don’t think pocket carry is either.

[JCN]

A number of the classes people list and take are geared towards higher threat carry which is fine and great.

If going to one of those classes, I would bring a full size Glock with extra magazines.

I wouldn’t bring a pocket carried J-frame and speed strips.

But people do carry like that, knowing that it’s not optimal from a performance standpoint.

An experienced and skilled pocket J-frame shooter might still beat the performance standards of a noob with a Glock at the classes.

It’s a personal choice.