Stoeger suspended from USPSA

[CleverNickname]

Or what name is on the #4473, unless the organization has an FFL?

Page 4 on the 4473 says:

"When the transferee/buyer of a firearm is a corporation, company, association, partnership, or other such business entity, an officer authorized to act on behalf of the business must complete Section B of the form with his/her personal information, sign Section B, and attach a written statement, executed under penalties of perjury, stating: (A) the firearm is being acquired for the use of and will be the property of that business entity; and (B) the name and address of that business entity."

[jetfire]

Or what name is on the #4473, unless the organization has an FFL?

Yeah, that's another important factor. I don't believe USPSA has an FFL, because when I've sent in guns for NROI review to get added to the production list they go to some rando FFL

[CleverNickname]

Yeah, that's another important factor. I don't believe USPSA has an FFL, because when I've sent in guns for NROI review to get added to the production list they go to some rando FFL

Looking at the list of FFLs I don't see one for USPSA.

[Stephanie B]

I'd call USPSA a four-alarm dumpster fire, but if dumpster fires ever became sentient, they might sue for defamation.

[jetfire]

Looking at the list of FFLs I don't see one for USPSA.

Alright, so on this topic let's look at an example from another organization and how T&E guns are normally handled in the industry. Let's say I want to get the new GX4 Carry reviewed in Ballistic Magazine. I contact one of the editors of Ballistic at their official corporate email address, and send them a gun to write up. That editor as an employee of the magazine writes the review, and then at the conclusion of the review emails me asking me what writer's price for the gun is. Because we're homies, I give him the hookup, he pays for the gun and gets to keep it.

Despite the fact that he's an employee of the magazine and the gun was sent to him in his official capacity at the magazine, at no point did anyone think the gun belonged to the magazine. I sent it to a specific writer for specific work, and at the end he pays for it with his own money. This is standard industry practice whether I'm sending guns to employees or freelancers.

So that means in the case of Jake, if he was sent a gun to review for the USPSA magazine, then paid writer's price for it and eventually resold it, he didn't do anything that violates industry norms. Now, that doesn't mean we don't pay attention to see if writers are intentionally flipping guns for profit, because that's not cool (and is also a crime) because that will get people blacklisted.

To be clear, I'm not defending Jake here, just pointing out that furor over the gun thing is actually more of a tempest in a teapot than a real issue. With the caveat that if he bought the guns at a discount and sold them with the intention to make a profit, he probably committed a crime.

[RevolverRob]

With the caveat that if he bought the guns at a discount and sold them with the intention to make a profit, he probably committed a crime.

It's pretty clear that he was using Indiana Gun Owners Forum (INGO) as a venue to sell firearms for about 2-years and almost certainly made a profit during that time.

Martens sold over 30 firearms during that time, most of them competition related firearms, and at least 1/3 of them were featured in Front Sight Magazine. He deleted a number of posts and not all of them were able to be recovered, such that we don't know what all guns were sold just some of the amounts they were sold for. In addition, he sold a number of accessories and ammo, coincidentally also featured in various capacities in Front Sight Magazine. Over the course of 2-years he sold these things for at least $23k.

During this time Martens was reported to have handed out business cards to people at matches and letting them know, "I'm moving some inventory." - Which is an example, literally called out in the BATF Pamphlet "Do I need an FFL?", as something that you probably need an FFL for.

[fatdog]

Over the course of 2-years he sold these things for at least $23k..

If you did not pay for the item, the IRS calls it income, if you sold it for more than you paid I am pretty sure they consider it a capital gain....but I am not an accountant. Not sums that anyone is likely to get criminally charged for but an audit, back taxes, fines if they found you out of compliance. I don't know what sort of public accusations get someone an IRS audit.

[jetfire]

It's pretty clear that he was using Indiana Gun Owners Forum (INGO) as a venue to sell firearms for about 2-years and almost certainly made a profit during that time.

Martens sold over 30 firearms during that time, most of them competition related firearms, and at least 1/3 of them were featured in Front Sight Magazine. He deleted a number of posts and not all of them were able to be recovered, such that we don't know what all guns were sold just some of the amounts they were sold for. In addition, he sold a number of accessories and ammo, coincidentally also featured in various capacities in Front Sight Magazine. Over the course of 2-years he sold these things for at least $23k.

During this time Martens was reported to have handed out business cards to people at matches and letting them know, "I'm moving some inventory." - Which is an example, literally called out in the BATF Pamphlet "Do I need an FFL?", as something that you probably need an FFL for.

Yeah, I'm not an ATF auditor, but I would consider that to fall under the list of things that you probably need an FFL for. That skirts awfully close to the line of "engaged in the business" and then when you say shit like "I'm moving inventory" vs "I need to clean out this fucking gun safe that's full of shit"

[TCinVA]

Well, let's see:

Under this BOD - the average member has had their organizational money spent down to nearly nothing.

The BOD has banned members for saying anything negative about them.

They have sponsored and attempted to get members to violate state laws at Cameo.

The DRNOI has publicly berated volunteers at matches.

The director of marketing has taken guns and ammo given to him to review in his capacity and sold them illegally, pocketing the cash. Thereby making the org intrinsically less lawful.

They are currently being sued by a banned member and spending membership dollars on their legal defense.

They have nearly doubled dues without justification.

They have nearly doubled spending without justification.

They have cut Team USA spending. Meanwhile, they created a "Senior Team" which just so happens to have two, mediocre, board members on it. So they can use your money to travel to matches.

They have canceled Level 2 matches with local clubs, because a member or two of those clubs said something mean about them on the internet.

But hey if you want your membership dues to go to paying legal defenses and allowing a few individuals to have unfettered access to the money and use it as their personal travel/slush fund, that's up to you.

Change a couple of details and it sounds like you're talking about federal government officials.

[DMF13]

Ah, polygraphs. What a mess.

Polygraphs do have their place as an investigative tool, and are misunderstood by many who love them, and hate them.

However, the number of properly trained polygraphers, is very small. There is a huge difference between someone who went to the DoD polygraph school, that is a couple months long, then has all their tests peer reviewed, and has continuing education requirements, versus someone who went to a week long class, doesn't have their tests peer reviewed, and is unlikely to get, let alone be required to attend, any continuing education, and doesn't have their testing peer reviewed.

Do you really think USPSA is going pay for someone who fits in the former category, and understands how to properly conduct a pre-test interview, conduct the testing, do a proper post test interview, is educated in the most recent developments (including countermeasures), has the most up to date equipment, and works on a team with other polygraphers so their work can be peer reviewed? I have my doubts, as those guys in the private sector command extremely high prices.

Some guy who has been to a class that's a few day long, has equipment that's questionable, isn't getting continuing education, and doesn't have well trained peers reviewing their tests, will look like a huge bargain. My guess is that's who will be hired by an organization that is looking to have many people tested, and is experience some financial difficulties.

All speculation on my part, but I've been to Vegas, and know how to play the odds.