Minneapolis PD Suspect Dies On Video While Handcuffed. FBI Investigating.

[Crawls]

Someone, @Crawls, wrote about contradictory statements in the article I shared. Respectfully disagree. If the knee on the neck didn't block, collapse, etc the airway, then that may not have been the cause. What else was going on with the male and other officers not shown in those videos? If a protracted struggle took place before the videos shown so far started that might well explain how the male ended up cuffed and prone with multiple officers on him. That combination could be what led to an excited delirium death.

I think we're debating semantics. Perhaps my understanding of "positional asphyxia" is incorrect. I'm thinking of it as synonymous to positional suffocation. That could be incorrect. Consequentially, (by my definition) a collapsed trachea or otherwise occluded airway is a red hearing. If the suspect died of positional asphyxia associated with excited dysphoria, it was still the officer's knee that kept that the suspect in the position where he struggled to breathe. Perhaps the suspect would still have succumbed to the excited dysphoria even if the officers had sat the suspect up. Who knows? But based off of what the Author wrote in the rest of the article, it seems like keeping the subject in the prone was the wrong course of action. I'm not judging the officers. I am not in law enforcement; was not there in the moment, and have not seen the missing segments of video. I'm just trying to understand the point the author is making.

[BehindBlueI's]

I think we're debating semantics. Perhaps my understanding of "positional asphyxia" is incorrect. I'm thinking of it as synonymous to positional suffocation. That could be incorrect. Consequentially, (by my definition) a collapsed trachea or otherwise occluded airway is a red hearing. If the suspect died of positional asphyxia associated with excited dysphoria, it was still the officer's knee that kept that the suspect in the position where he struggled to breathe. Perhaps the suspect would still have succumbed to the excited dysphoria even if the officers had sat the suspect up. Who knows? But based off of what the Author wrote in the rest of the article, it seems like keeping the subject in the prone was the wrong course of action. I'm not judging the officers. I am not in law enforcement; was not there in the moment, and have not seen the missing segments of video. I'm just trying to understand the point the author is making.

I'll try one more time. Yes, leaving him prone was the wrong course of action.

"The knee" and "prone" are two different things and two different issues. The knee is not required to keep the guy prone. People die when left in the prone and unattended.

[JTQ]

ABC News showed additional video of the police calmly walking, what appears to be an already handcuffed George Floyd from a car, onto the sidewalk and toward a building. I've also heard a radio report indicating the police spent 10 minutes trying to get Mr. Floyd into a patrol car.

The public is currently missing information between the sidewalk/building and how Mr. Floyd ended back on the street and on the ground.

[JHC]

Eight seconds? When LL’s brother put me into one, I tapped out after maybe two seconds. Absolutely astounding how quickly you feel it.

When I was put "out" with a LATERAL VASCULAR RESTRAINT technique it probably took about 8 seconds. The room was like an old style TV screen that zoomed down tight and then went black. And then in reverse order it zoomed back open. This was administered by an instructor for the class. I think of it as old school pre Taser demo. I didn't give it a 2nd thought but I guess that may not be considered a safe practice anymore.

We were taught counters to escape this but they were BS mostly IMO. I had my doubts so before a class I asked an experienced street cop to do me for real to see if I could make the counter work. It did not. He hit me like a cross between a bull and a python and I was tapping in no time. He said "Don't feel bad, I've xxxxxx-out 100 guys on the street for real. If I sink it you're done."

But this was a long time ago. Probably '91 or so.

[BehindBlueI's]

The public is currently missing information between the sidewalk/building and how Mr. Floyd ended back on the street and on the ground.

Regardless of why, the problem of holding him in the prone for an extended period of time after control had been gained is the problem. The dangers are well known in law enforcement and have been detailed in this thread already. I can't think of any scenario where that currently missing information overrides that fact.

My department requires a supervisor to do an administrative review of every use of force (defined as any use of physical force other than unresisted handcuffing) by officers. Yesterday two of my officers were dispatched to a guy drugged up and destroying a gas station restroom. He pulled the dispensers off the walls, beat the walls with the trashcan, got into the urinal to try and drag it off the wall, was basically just in there working himself pretty hard in destruction mode. Unsurprisingly he resisted, flailing and kicking at officers. He continued to resist while in handcuffs until a third officer arrived with leg shackles and limited his ability to kick. Then two officers held him down ON HIS SIDE with weight on his pelvis and legs.

That dude was a prime fucking candidate for excited delirium. Drugged up, already engaged in strenuous physical activity, had already stripped off most of his clothes (because body temperature isn't regulated as well any more and they are cooking themselves), and then engaged in a struggle with police. After rolling around in a public toilet at a gas station and getting himself wet from the urinal and possibly the toilet. I watched 10 minutes of video until medics arrived. They held him on his side the entire time until medics arrived. That's what they are trained to do regardless of what happened before the suspect was under control.

[lwt16]

When I was put "out" with a LATERAL VASCULAR RESTRAINT technique it probably took about 8 seconds. The room was like an old style TV screen that zoomed down tight and then went black. And then in reverse order it zoomed back open. This was administered by an instructor for the class. I think of it as old school pre Taser demo. I didn't give it a 2nd thought but I guess that may not be considered a safe practice anymore.

We were taught counters to escape this but they were BS mostly IMO. I had my doubts so before a class I asked an experienced street cop to do me for real to see if I could make the counter work. It did not. He hit me like a cross between a bull and a python and I was tapping in no time. He said "Don't feel bad, I've xxxxxx-out 100 guys on the street for real. If I sink it you're done."

But this was a long time ago. Probably '91 or so.

We had a former officer show up to in-service drunk (hence, former) and started a physical fight with another officer over pretty much nothing.

One of the instructors, also a DT instructor, came up behind him, sank it, and it was all over in seconds. Nighty nite for a few and then massive headache and pink slip.

Back on track though, I've had resistant subjects and hostile crowds. What we do is load up said dude and GTFO....even if someone has to ride in the back with them to get a block or two from the crowd. Then that guy/gal walks back to get their car.

I'm not understanding the delay....unless they have a policy that states medical needs to check someone out after a UOF. Even then, I'd load and leave to a more secure location.

[rkittine]

Not only was it wrong, but in today's world of Body Cams, Cell Phone Videos etc., why would anyone in their right mind take that kind of action for an unarmed perpetrator especially suspected forgery!

Bob

[andre3k]

I watched 10 minutes of video until medics arrived.

You're lucky you only have to watch the portion of video involving the use of force. I have to watch the entire video, which can be quite long. Fortunately, the policy doesn't say I can't fast forward through some parts of the video.




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[blues]

Regardless of why, the problem of holding him in the prone for an extended period of time after control had been gained is the problem.

This, and the method of keeping him prone, are the crux. What happened prior is rendered irrelevant once he has been brought under control. Other options were available, whether ideal or not.

[BehindBlueI's]

You're lucky you only have to watch the portion of video involving the use of force. I have to watch the entire video, which can be quite long. Fortunately, the policy doesn't say I can't fast forward through some parts of the video.

It was surveillance video at the gas station. I'd still be there if I had to watch the entire video.