LawDog Atty Fee Fundraiser

[c_rion]

Same article where the dude assaulted multiples officers, grabbed a taser (perhaps additional weapons?), and had four counts of aggravated assault against a public servant?



Did you even read the article before you took this guy’s side?

So he put his elbow in his back and fingers in his nose.

Honestly, your research has solidified my stance on the matter. Stephanie should’ve shared your article to begin with.

That great. Good for you. The Sheriff, DA, and Grand Jury didn't take his side. I don't think his jury will either. Hope his fund raiser is successful, he's gonna need it.

You said: ETA: He was resisting after being tasered - so it sounds like he was 100% non-compliant and motivated. So, it seems Law Dog in a separate incident (same evening) did what he had to to get the guy under control.

Read better. The incident with the suspect resisting after being tased happened at the hospital, NOT at the jail with the Lt. The Lt. did what he did AFTER the resisting while tasering incident at the hospital. The guy resisting at the hospital DOES NOT justify the Lt.'s unlawful use of force later when the prisoner was resisting at the jail.

The Lt. knew what he could and could not do as far as non compliant or resisting prisoners at the jail, since he was one of the COMPLIANCE OFFICERS for use of force in the jail,and he used unlawful force anyway. Then he tried to dodge the repercussions of that unlawful use of force by retiring instead of facing a suspension and investigation. That didn't work. I have no remorse for the Lt, and fully support the actions of Sheriff Duke.

[DDTSGM]

Just curious if you have extensive experience dealing with prosecutors, grand juries, and use of force in law enforcement and correctional settings?

Or are you talking out of your ass?

Because it looks from here that you're talking out of your ass.

As a matter of fact, it just so happens that I check every box you listed. From my perspective he isn't talking out his ass.

Sometimes normally good guys do things in the heat of the moment for which they end up paying a stiff price.

[BWT]

That great. Good for you. The Sheriff, DA, and Grand Jury didn't take his side. I don't think his jury will either. Hope his fund raiser is successful, he's gonna need it.

You said: ETA: He was resisting after being tasered - so it sounds like he was 100% non-compliant and motivated. So, it seems Law Dog in a separate incident (same evening) did what he had to to get the guy under control.

Read better. The incident with the suspect resisting after being tased happened at the hospital, NOT at the jail with the Lt. The Lt. did what he did AFTER the resisting while tasering incident at the hospital. The guy resisting at the hospital DOES NOT justify the Lt.'s unlawful use of force later at the jail.

The Lt. knew what he could and could not do in the jail, and he used unlawful force anyway. Then tried to dodge the repercussions of that unlawful use of force by retiring instead of facing a suspension and investigation. That didn't work. I have no remorse for the Lt, and fully support the actions of Sheriff Duke.

I bolded your quote of mine. I made that distinction in your quote. Multiple officers had to subdue him earlier in the day. Without footage the Lt seems to had to have subdued himself. Also, the guy didn’t file a complaint against the officer in question (it seems)? The details paint the picture of a very violent man. ETA: Who also didn’t feel victimized?

I honestly have no issue with you, and this’ll be the end of my involvement but, I think you’re entrenching yourself needlessly and this issue is more complex. I don’t know that you and I will agree. What I’d recommend at this point is perhaps explore the forum beyond this single thread?

[HCM]

Im sure that Lt. McMurtrie would have said the same exact thing to me on Jan 1st 2020. However, on Nov 10, 2022 Im sure he feels, differently. Mr. Rob, if you feel that jamming your fingers up some dudes nose on camera in the jail is what all of your years of experience doing whatever you do is the way to go, please, be my guest. Just don't be surprised about what happens afterward. Good luck with your fundraiser to fight the charges. Im sure your Sheriff will jump right in to back you up as well. Especially if you were at one point in the "Compliance Division". Please enjoy the rest of your day, Mr.Rob

https://www.texomashomepage.com/news...ooking-inmate/

Direct quote from Sheriff Duke:

Duke said the incident was recorded, and because the abuse was so clear, McMurtrie was quickly placed on suspension and then retired within days.

For some of his 20 years with the Wichita County Sheriff’s Office, Duke said McMurtrie was in the Compliance Division, which ensures the jail stays in compliance with state standards of conditions and treatment.

“Such clear cases of improper actions cannot be tolerated,” Duke said.

While Rob can be … well Rob, he asked a valid question and you gave a non answer and changed the subject.

This is only the second thread you’ve participated in since you joined PF a year ago so the basis for your arguments are unknown

here are my questions:

Do you have an LE experience or any other professional experience with the legal system or law enforcement use of force?

When was the last time you were in an actual physical fight as an adult ?

Do you know or have any connection to the current Wichita County Sheriff or the defendant ?

Have you seen the videos of the incident in the jail ?

Here’s what I know:

There are two conflicting versions of what happened. Those conflicting versions are being reported on by the media. I have, on multiple occasions in my 25 year LE career been witness or participant in events, covered by the media and then found the media version to be grossly inaccurate.

I can also tell you that LEOs being “thrown under the bus” to settle internal political feuds is a thing that happens in some agencies, ESPECIALLY in agencies headed by elected officials such as Sheriffs and Constables Offices if you back the wrong candidate during the election.

Without more reliable knowledge of what actually happened, a good man doing something wrong in the heat of the moment and a good man being railroaded due to internal politics are equally possible.

[c_rion]

While Rob can be … well Rob, he asked a valid question and you gave a non answer and changed the subject.

This is only the second thread you’ve participated in since you joined PF a year ago so here are my questions:

Do you have an LE experience or any other professional experience with the legal system or law enforcement use of force?

When was the last time you were in an actual physical fight as an adult ?

Do you know or have any connection to the current Wichita County Sheriff or the defendant ?

Here’s what I know:

There are two conflicting versions of what happened. Those conflicting versions are being reported on by the media. I have, on multiple occasions in my 25 year LE career been witness or participant in events, covered by the media and then found the media version to be grossly inaccurate.

Without better knowledge of what happened

Im a retired Combat Arms NCO with 27 Months of combat experience in line platoons. I led soldiers in combat in OIF 1, Operation Iron Saber, and The Surge. I patrolled and fought in Sadr City on April 4 2004( Battle of Sadr City), Al Kut, An Najaf(OIS), and Route Irish/ Amiriyah in Baghdad(The Surge). All while being subject to ever changing use of force directives, ROEs, the Law of Land Warfare and the UCMJ. While also enforcing the same. My last firefight with and physical fight and capture of an adult non uniformed enemy combatant /EPW was April 2006 at Al-Madinah Al-Monawara Mosque in sector 834 in Baghdad. I was decorated for Valor in that fight. I have been a part of and subject to 15-6 investigations regarding the lethal use of force under combat conditions. I followed the ROE , use of force directives, etc and miraculously never ended up Relieved for Cause, GOMOR, or in jail. I have zero tolerance for anyone who is in a profession of arms, as the "good guy",knows the rules, what the ROE and use of force policies and SOPs are, and blatantly fails to follow them. The ends do NOT justify the means,period. He used unlawful force, tried to duck the consequences, and now will have to answer to those consequences. I do know Sheriff Duke in passing(met once and shook his hand), I do not know the LT. Yes, I participated in 2 threads. Im not a chatty Cathy. I really do not like to do the whole" this is my resume" e-penis thing, however, you asked so eloquently, so there is your answer. If you are looking for an echo chamber to reinforce your opinions and be a cheerleader for "your guy", whoever that may be and irrespective of the circumstances,regardless of what the Sheriff has to say, who is also very much "One of your guys", then please, by all means feel free to show me the door. I see I may be in the wrong place after all.

[runcible]

Im a retired Combat Arms NCO with 27 Months of combat experience in line platoons. I led soldiers in combat in OIF 1, Operation Iron Saber, and The Surge. I patrolled and fought in Sadr City on April 4 2004( Battle of Sadr City), Al Kut, An Najaf(OIS), and Route Irish/ Amiriyah in Baghdad(The Surge). All while being subject to ever changing use of force directives, ROEs, the Law of Land Warfare and the UCMJ. While also enforcing the same. My last firefight with and physical fight and capture of an adult non uniformed enemy combatant /EPW was April 2006 at Al-Madinah Al-Monawara Mosque in sector 834 in Baghdad. I was decorated for Valor in that fight. I have been a part of and subject to 15-6 investigations regarding the lethal use of force under combat conditions. I followed the ROE , use of force directives, etc and miraculously never ended up Relieved for Cause, GOMOR, or in jail. I have zero tolerance for anyone who is in a profession of arms, as the "good guy",knows the rules, what the ROE and use of force policies and SOPs are, and blatantly fails to follow them. The ends do NOT justify the means,period. He used unlawful force, tried to duck the consequences, and now will have to answer to those consequences. I do know Sheriff Duke in passing(met once and shook his hand), I do not know the LT. Yes, I participated in 2 threads. Im not a chatty Cathy. I really do not like to do the whole" this is my resume" e-penis thing, however, you asked so eloquently, so there is your answer. If you are looking for an echo chamber to reinforce your opinions and be a cheerleader for "your guy", whoever that may be and irrespective of the circumstances,regardless of what the Sheriff has to say, who is also very much "One of your guys", then please, by all means feel free to show me the door. I see I may be in the wrong place after all.

Hey dude,

Thanks for taking the time to write out that thorough reply. I think a lot of posters are wrestling with what they perceive to be a disproportionate amount of schadenfreude in your posts, in combination with you being an unknown arrived out of the blue, and I hope your exposition helps them understand where you’re coming from.

I do think many posters will have questions about the use of such specific diction as, “use of force (directives)” in a military context, given that even during traditional SASO/MOTW ROE remains the guideline. I think that an example of such a UOF Dir or an example of the publishing authority (e.g. MNF-I, MNF-W, USF-I) would bolster your case that it’s an accurate use of the term. I recall David Bolgiano’s exposition on and differentiating between the related concepts of UOF and ROE being much lauded, back in 2014; and a viewing might further the conversation.

I think that some might also find the use of “OIS” to refer to a military engagement to be out of the ordinary, if not inappropriate. At the cultural level, OIS personalizes the experience to the individual, where as an engagement implies unit (or elements of) participation in the event.

It being Veteran’s Day: thank you for your service, and for offering your experience(s) of the 15-19 years past to this present discussion.

[c_rion]

Hey dude,

Thanks for taking the time to write out that thorough reply. I think a lot of posters are wrestling with what they perceive to be a disproportionate amount of schadenfreude in your posts, in combination with you being an unknown arrived out of the blue, and I hope your exposition helps them understand where you’re coming from.

I do think many posters will have questions about the use of such specific diction as, “use of force (directives)” in a military context, given that even during traditional SASO/MOTW ROE remains the guideline. I think that an example of such a UOF Dir or an example of the publishing authority (e.g. MNF-I, MNF-W, USF-I) would bolster your case that it’s an accurate use of the term. I recall David Bolgiano’s exposition on and differentiating between the related concepts of UOF and ROE being much lauded, back in 2014; and a viewing might further the conversation.

I think that some might also find the use of “OIS” to refer to a military engagement to be out of the ordinary, if not inappropriate. At the cultural level, OIS personalizes the experience to the individual, where as an engagement implies unit (or elements of) participation in the event.

It being Veteran’s Day: thank you for your service, and for offering your experience(s) of the 15-19 years past to this present discussion.

1. "Use of force directive" is guidance by someone with Command Authority that locally modifies and further restricts your use of force and further limits what you can or cant do or weapons you cannot employ. These use of force directives are lawful orders and carry the force of law. IE; You are in a very built up area with lots of COBS. The battle space commander determines that 40mm HEDP will not be used to engage enemy forces because of the great risk for collateral damage. ROE remains the guideline, but ROE can be further defined or restricted by a use of force directive if the battlespace commander feels that it is necessary. Twice during my time in IZ, my actual SROE shifted from MOTW/COIN back to a WROE. Exciting.

2. OIS referred to and in this context is an abbreviation of Operation Iron Saber. Not OIS as it refers to police and an Officer Involved Shooting.

3. Thanks. I appreciate it. Honestly I should have just layed low and not have to type out a resume. I hate doing it just to measure "e- penis". It won't happen again.

4.Folks apparently do not realize that Witchita is a soilid red, republican voting pro police county. The Judges are Republican, the Sheriff is a Republican, the DA is a Republican.It isn't Travis county, it is probably one of the most pro police counties in TX. In spite of all that, the Sheriff, DA, and a panel of Witchita county citizens on a grand jury, after watching the video, voted to indict. Thats a clue.

5. Im done here. The LT is either going to plea or stand trial, and it is what it is. He brought this upon himself, and I wish him the best of luck.

[jlw]

These use of force directives are lawful orders and carry the force of law. I.

No. No, they do not. Agency policy is simply policy, not law. One may be fired or otherwise disciplined for violating policy but not prosecuted.

[runcible]

No. No, they do not. Agency policy is simply policy, not law. One may be fired or otherwise disciplined for violating policy but not prosecuted.

JLW,

I don't think you're parsing the difference between lawful orders given to those subject and liable to the UCMJ, versus standing orders and organizational directives in the context of civil law enforcement.

[jlw]

JLW,

I don't think you're parsing the difference between lawful orders given to those subject and liable to the UCMJ, versus standing orders and organizational directives in the context of civil law enforcement.

The use of force in question is by a peace officer, not a soldier.


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