Coordinated Attacks in Paris, France

[TGS]

Folks,

Let's take a breather.

Put down the keyboard. Step back. Count to 10.

Good. Let's talk about IS goals here, and what this means for us in terms of the latest attacks. We play the short game. We're looking at what effect this attack is going to have over the next few months, and what this means we should do tomorrow. We're concerned about the security of our state.

How about IS? In case you haven't noticed, self-preservation isn't really one of their concerns. Apocalypse is actually part of their corporate vision. They're devoted to their ideology, and their values in life are very different from ours with regards to security and prosperity vs serving their ideology. Their decision making is based around the reasonable lifespan of a religion, not the immediate self-preservation of the Caliphate. We're projecting our values of self-preservation onto ISIL, instead of giving a shit about their actual decision making factors.

There were several attacks, and not just in Paris. What is the goal of these attacks happening simultaneously?

To alienate Muslim populations from their host country's mainstream culture/population. Why? Put on your critical thinking caps, and lets brainstorm using the survival/dominance of a religion over hundreds or thousands of years as the common goal instead of why they did this and how it effects state security tomorrow.

Or, you could continue on, aimlessly quibbling without even having a basic understanding of your enemy and what their decision making is predicated upon.

[olstyn]

They will likely learn from the past and heavily avoid anywhere with the potential for getting shot to crap before the attack starts so a "gun free zone" or better a "gun free city" will likely be a target this time.

You're making me want to avoid going to the Mall of America even more than I already do. It's a big, splashy target of a "gun-free zone," and many people think it's only that way because that status hasn't been challenged in court. (MN law says that landlords [the mall] can't prohibit tenants [stores] or their guests [customers] from possessing firearms on the premises of their rental property [the mall].) Given that there hasn't been a challenge, they just go on posting their signs at every entrance, and those of us with carry permits go on avoiding the mall as much as possible.

Of course, the mall is also a very short distance from Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport. Multi-target mayhem, anyone?

[Dagga Boy]

Folks,

Let's take a breather.

Put down the keyboard. Step back. Count to 10.

Good. Let's talk about IS goals here, and what this means for us in terms of the latest attacks. We play the short game. We're looking at what effect this attack is going to have over the next few months, and what this means we should do tomorrow. We're concerned about the security of our state.

How about IS? In case you haven't noticed, self-preservation isn't really one of their concerns. Apocalypse is actually part of their corporate vision. They're devoted to their ideology, and their values in life are very different from ours with regards to security and prosperity vs serving their ideology. Their decision making is based around the reasonable lifespan of a religion, not the immediate self-preservation of the Caliphate. We're projecting our values of self-preservation onto ISIL, instead of giving a shit about their actual decision making factors.

There were several attacks, and not just in Paris. What is the goal of these attacks happening simultaneously?

To alienate Muslim populations from their host country's mainstream culture/population. Why? Put on your critical thinking caps, and lets brainstorm using the survival/dominance of a religion over hundreds or thousands of years as the common goal instead of why they did this and how it effects state security tomorrow.

Or, you could continue on, aimlessly quibbling without even having a basic understanding of your enemy and what their decision making is predicated upon.

I humbly disagree. The big picture.....ISIS does want a state and that is the long term goal. They want (and have taken) infrastructure. Dams, oil production, transportation and military equipment. They tax. They are heavily road based to move through their territory. The big picture is a true Fundamentalist Sunni Caliphate, and that very much includes the traditional lands in Saudi Arabia as a long term goal. Much of what they do is to terrorize the populace into submission to the state, and for recruitment to them. They do not attack the west to take the west...they attack the west to get the west to get to leave what they perceive as their region. Their victory is to get the western nations to leave the Middle East entirely and forever. In their convoluted view of the world they want us to go isolationist on our end.....and that is actually a choice for many and would likely work to stop ISIS attacks on us. So, our choices are to totally abandon the Middle East altogether and let them return it to a Caliphate that is ruled by a seventh century based doctrine, or.......we slaughter every single one of them and their associates. A negotiated middle road compromise is not going to be part of the equation...they do not think like that.

Now, converting the west and the entire world to Islam is always the utopian goal, the true goal they think is really attainable is a large Middle East state in which they dominate and run as a purely Islamic state based on their interpretation of what that is, not ours.
Truthfully, the whole apocalyptic thing is much more an Iranian Shia thing......which really worries me about them with a nuclear arsenal.

[frozentundra]

I agree with part of this, but I also think that they are playing with a shorter clock.

To alienate Muslim populations from their host country's mainstream culture/population. Why? Put on your critical thinking caps, and lets brainstorm using the survival/dominance of a religion over hundreds or thousands of years as the common goal instead of why they did this and how it effects state security tomorrow.
.

I'm not very educated or cultured, but this is my take.

I don't think Radical Islam can survive where there is a free flow of ideas and culture. They need to control information in order to keep half their population enslaved(women) and many men just literate enough to read what is approved, and believe what they are told. Knowledge, literacy, equality and communication are a greater threat to their backward way of life than any Western military. I think the radical extremists, or at least the leaders, understand this.

Governments, militaries and religious leaders don't bring about the real change in a society. Popular Culture does. Music, art, food, fashion, the things that entertain us in our daily lives. When you add modern technology and media it happens fast. Really fast. I believe this is why America has been able to go from Rosa Parks to Barack Obama in just a couple generations.

I think I see this happening pretty fast in some of the more technologically advanced and connected Muslim countries. Give it a couple generations to pick up steam and it might be surprising how far it goes. I'm sure the radicals see this too. Given the free exchange of information, I think that Western POP music, wikipedia, blue jeans, iPhones, The Voice, Walmart, Coca Cola, McDonald's and Dancing with the Stars, might just do more to moderate Islam in 50 years than anything in the last 1000.

J. Lo's ass is the biggest threat they've ever faced.

I think they see all of this and it makes them more dangerous than ever. They can't afford to have another couple generations pass under the influence of J. Lo's ass. They would rather it all burn under mushroom clouds.

[Joe in PNG]

Reading your statement - you have a massive amount of animosity towards White Europeans. All of the stuff that's occurring, and you still can't get past wringing your hands over what Europeans *might* do? You're worried about Nazis and jackboots? That's the real problem?

Nobody believes in this guilt trip anymore.

I don't have animosity*, but I do read a whole heck of a lot of history. That half of Europe isn't currently trying to kill off the other half is a historical anonymity.
Worse than ISIL? We've seen it, and seen lots of it- the Germans did it to the Russians in 1941-44, rapes, murders, beheading, with added industrialized mass murder of people both in the camps and in mass starvation of both POW's and the occupied population. The Russians did it to themselves before WWII, and did a bit to Europe post WWII. Imperial Japan pulled an ISIL on Asia- the rape of Nanjing was every bit as horrible as anything ISL has done. China then went pretty horrible with the Cultural Revolution. And let's not forget Pol Pot in Cambodia. All these things were far, far worse than ISIL.

There is a darkness in the human soul, my own included, that frightens me.

Now, in regards to Europe's leaders, this desire to to avoid the dark side of their history is very likely going to backfire. By clinging to the PC, they may bring about the kind of popular reaction they wish to avoid.

*"Zero to jackboot" is a Tam quote BTW.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I think I'll pass on refighting WWII and the Cold War in this thread. Jay and I can agree to disagree.

[Kyle Reese]

J. Lo's ass is the biggest threat they've ever faced.

I think they see all of this and it makes them more dangerous than ever. They can't afford to have another couple generations pass under the influence of J. Lo's ass. They would rather it all burn under mushroom clouds.

Well written and articulated post, but damned if this doesn't sound like an awesome future South Park episode.

[BaiHu]

...
There is a darkness in the human soul, my own included, that frightens me.

This and TGS' question as to 'why' I find fascinating.

The ignorance/denial of the above quote, I believe, is the reason why PC has thrived in the last 30+ years.

While the majority of the developed world has distance themselves from reality, it has given enough oxygen for psychopaths to breathe where they normally would not even be able to live.

We, as a country (I don't care about other countries right now), have an autoimmune disease that has allowed the virus of "real" radicalism to hit our shores and take root.

I believe we are very close to looking like France if it weren't for the 2nd amendment and the recent support for people like Trump. It shows that we still have the physical tools and mentality still hiding within our population even if we are running dangerously low on time.

Thanks for all your posts. I'll go back to reading & comprehension.

[BaiHu]

Well written and articulated post, but damned if this doesn't sound like an awesome future South Park episode.

Agreed. Seemed pretty cultured to me.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

We don't call for repeal of the Second Amendment because of mass shootings.

If one reads the academic press - across the colleges of America are clear calls for repealing the 2nd Amend. and restricting the 1st with speech codes and safety zones. Check out the Chronicle of Higher Education (chronicle.com).

As far as Isis being a state, the coin world news (a hobby) reports that they are starting to mint gold and silver coins as their religion says that's the way money should be.

I think there is clear evidence that many movements or crazed nations didn't lose their power until they are faced with an existential threat to their base population which then abandons them or some not really into leadership throws out the nuts.

It is an empirical question as to whether Western tech and music will change a long term culture. For instance, theorists are puzzling over the Chinese who have adopted tech and some of capitalism but don't seem to be on the march to democracy. Obama bet the Iran deal on the theory that cultural change will displace the Mullahs when the time is up and they can build all the nukes they want.

We will see.