Attacked by a dog

[fixer]

I love my dogs, while I don't view them as people, I don't understand why you would lower the use of force bar just because its a dog. If you were being run at by a person threatening to bite you, you probably wouldn't be justified in shooting them right off the bat (they aren't probably an imminent deadly threat), why do we think that a single dog threatening to bite us (generally in an extremity) is a deadly threat to be met with deadly force? The rules obviously can change as a situation escalates, or if there are multiple dogs, the dog appears diseased or a child being attacked etc etc, but you get my point.

I agree that a UOF continuum is necessary. I've learned this the hard way from being menaced and attacked a few times. It literally sucks having only your pistol to deploy on a charging and aggressive dog. You may miss, it is loud, and I'm basically gonna ruin my day and have to deal with the local PD for the next several hours. No thanks. I'd rather get the baton and strike the dog hard. If the situation becomes worse then I go to a pistol. In no way am I ever going to go hands-on with an aggressive dog.

Here is my take on this...

There are a multitude of reasons why the UOF bar is lowered with a dog.

First is that it is an animal that possesses limited critical thinking and reasoning skills. Once it has decided to attack, you have zero options to figure out its intent.

Second, In reference to the human biting analogy, a large breed dog bite is a serious injury about the magnitude of a knife wound. A dog's bite and teeth are a weapon endowed to them by nature. They know how to use it very, very well.

Third. Dogs pain tolerance and 'drive' goes sky high when they experience an adrenaline dump. going hands-on or kicking should be your last option, not first. You need to decisively ensure that you are going prevail. The dog is going to fight to the death or is willing to take things to a limit most humans aren't prepared to go. In other words, it isn't a big deal for a dog's flesh to get ripped up, for a human it is very painful and very expensive.

Fourth. Dynamics. Dogs are quick, agile, and have probably 3+ times the cardio endurance a human does. A chain saw with fur.

These are the reasons I lower the UOF bar on dogs. And the bar is progressively lowered the larger the dog.

I have a dog. It is babied. It is part of my family. I like dogs in general. This doesn't mean I can't recognize the threat a dog can bring. I also know that despite my dog being very docile, she possesses the ability to lash out and attack. I wouldn't blame someone for defending themselves as they see fit.

I don't second guess a cop or civilian's decision to use lethal force quicker on a dog than they would otherwise on a human.

Edit: About OC and MACE. I've ruled this out. Dogs are too quick. And at night it is impossible to aim. And where I live the wind blows strong enough to push it back into your face.

For me it is #1. S-A-W. find the dog beforehand. Call the PD and complain. #2. If you can't do #1, get the baton. #3. If #2 doesn't work, then go to pistol.

[Shades]

My wife and I have both had aggressive dogs come after us when out walking in the evening and we have found that a bright flashlight with a strobe function shined in dogs' eyes has a strong disorienting effect on them. A bright light alone seems to confuse them, but the strobe really affects them, causing them to stagger as though drunk. It seems to be unpleasant for them, as even after turning the light off, the dogs had no further desire to pursue further.

[bkpker]

I agree that a UOF continuum is necessary. I've learned this the hard way from being menaced and attacked a few times. It literally sucks having only your pistol to deploy on a charging and aggressive dog. You may miss, it is loud, and I'm basically gonna ruin my day and have to deal with the local PD for the next several hours. No thanks. I'd rather get the baton and strike the dog hard. If the situation becomes worse then I go to a pistol. In no way am I ever going to go hands-on with an aggressive dog.

Here is my take on this...

There are a multitude of reasons why the UOF bar is lowered with a dog.

First is that it is an animal that possesses limited critical thinking and reasoning skills. Once it has decided to attack, you have zero options to figure out its intent.

Second, In reference to the human biting analogy, a large breed dog bite is a serious injury about the magnitude of a knife wound. A dog's bite and teeth are a weapon endowed to them by nature. They know how to use it very, very well.

Third. Dogs pain tolerance and 'drive' goes sky high when they experience an adrenaline dump. going hands-on or kicking should be your last option, not first. You need to decisively ensure that you are going prevail. The dog is going to fight to the death or is willing to take things to a limit most humans aren't prepared to go. In other words, it isn't a big deal for a dog's flesh to get ripped up, for a human it is very painful and very expensive.

Fourth. Dynamics. Dogs are quick, agile, and have probably 3+ times the cardio endurance a human does. A chain saw with fur.

These are the reasons I lower the UOF bar on dogs. And the bar is progressively lowered the larger the dog.

I have a dog. It is babied. It is part of my family. I like dogs in general. This doesn't mean I can't recognize the threat a dog can bring. I also know that despite my dog being very docile, she possesses the ability to lash out and attack. I wouldn't blame someone for defending themselves as they see fit.

I don't second guess a cop or civilian's decision to use lethal force quicker on a dog than they would otherwise on a human.

Edit: About OC and MACE. I've ruled this out. Dogs are too quick. And at night it is impossible to aim. And where I live the wind blows strong enough to push it back into your face.

For me it is #1. S-A-W. find the dog beforehand. Call the PD and complain. #2. If you can't do #1, get the baton. #3. If #2 doesn't work, then go to pistol.

Certainly good points, but I would tend to think that all animals (humans included) would also have many of the same dynamics in effect in a critical stress situation or adrenaline dump. Pain tolerance goes up, critical thinking goes down etc no matter the species. I think that many dog attack situations aren't the full on "I'm gonna kill and eat you" type of attack, and I think our use of force model should allow for recognition of this (if possible) and allow for a lower bar than going straight to deadly force immediately all the time (as you articulated well in your last sentence).

As always with any use of force, civilian or law enforcement, there are liabilities that should be considered. Many pet owners would be more apt to sue you over a use of deadly force on a dog than they would on a human. Im not saying that we shouldn't use force because we are concerned with civil liability, but I don't think its wise to assume that because its "just a dog" that that somehow eliminates civil or criminal liability from the equation.

As far as the OC goes, I think the postal service's use of OC on dogs has been addressed earlier in this thread. Their use of OC on dogs seems fairly effective and I can't remember ever hearing of a mailman being killed by a dog. OC is one of those tools that doesn't work in all situations, but I don't think I would discount its usefulness out of hand.

[Peally]

Problem solved: OC canisters that mount to pistol rails... I'm gonna be rich

ETA: Ah, I apologize, I didn't realize this was in the Tactics forum. Ignore my smartass post above

[Coyotesfan97]

My wife and I have both had aggressive dogs come after us when out walking in the evening and we have found that a bright flashlight with a strobe function shined in dogs' eyes has a strong disorienting effect on them. A bright light alone seems to confuse them, but the strobe really affects them, causing them to stagger as though drunk. It seems to be unpleasant for them, as even after turning the light off, the dogs had no further desire to pursue further.

A bright light to the eyes and a loud, harsh command usually works. My default command is Pfui (Phoeey) from years of yelling it at working dogs. No works just as well. It's the harshness that does it.

[Malamute]

A bright light to the eyes and a loud, harsh command usually works. My default command is Pfui (Phoeey) from years of yelling it at working dogs. No works just as well. It's the harshness that does it.

I've used "NO! Bad dog!" several times with immediate results. Most recently was 4 dogs coming at me at their home place I was visiting. Was like magic. One had nipped at me before and a "NO!" made it stop and walk away disinterested. They read body language like champs also.

[Gadfly]

My neighbors and I have been friends for years. They rescue abused German Shepherds, and have for about the last 10 years. So around a week before Christmas, I went to drop off a Christmas present and meet their newest adopted rescue dog. As the Husband and I are speaking at the door, dog 1 sticks his head out to say hello. I have known dog 1 for a few years now, we get along, and he got petted, ear scratched and general love for about a minute...

Then dog two stick his head out the door and sees me petting dog one. I hold out my hand for him to sniff before I try to pet him since we are just meeting for the first time. In about a micro second 120lbs of shepherd is clamed onto my left forearm and is shaking me like a rag doll! I have been around dogs my whole life and have owned big dogs (Labs, Shepherd mix, 2 great Danes) and in 44 years I have never been bit until then. I was completely caught off guard by the speed and power of the thrashing he was doing. I was armed, but I am not about to shoot my friends dog on his front porch! He is grabbing at the dogs collar trying to get him off of me. I was about to start punching the dog, but came quickly to the conclusion that if I hit dog 2, then dog 1 may decide to get in on the action, and then I was going to have real problems. His owner got him off and calmed down pretty quickly.

The whole incident from bite to release 5 to 10 seconds. But that was a LONG 5 seconds. Two upper and one lower front canine teeth fully punctured, so I was not getting my arm out of his mouth without him opening up. No way in hell I could have pulled my arm out or rotated out. The puncture and bite almost seemed painless (shock and adrenalin I am sure) but the shaking... (Hang a 100 barbell from your arm and put it in a paint can shaker...)

All in all I have a MUCH greater respect for the power of a pissed off dog than I used to. I have had dog issues as a cop, but have never felt the need to shoot a dog. A kick or aggressive voice has run off many, and some potato chips or beef jerky has defused some situations. I like dogs and don't want to hurt one, but Being on the receiving end, I don't think I can allow myself to get bit again. Immediately losing one arm is a bad way to start a fight. And If I wait until I am bit to start fighting, I might not be able to get it off of me.

Who knows why it attacked? Did I remind him of the previous owner who abused him? Did I smell in a way he did not like? Did he perceive hand shakes and such with the owner as aggression? Was my mere presence on the porch a challenge to his new home territory? Don't know. Not sure I want to go back over and find out. I don't blame my neighbors at all. They did nothing wrong. They are good hearted folks trying to give a good home to a dog that had a bad start in life...

[Malamute]

...I hold out my hand for him to sniff before I try to pet him since we are just meeting for the first time. In about a micro second 120lbs of shepherd is clamed onto my left forearm and is shaking me like a rag doll!...I was completely caught off guard by the speed and power of the thrashing he was doing. I was armed,... Immediately losing one arm is a bad way to start a fight...

A good reminder to not offer your strong hand to an unknown dog. If it turned out to be more serious than it did, having your right arm in its mouth would limit your options.

The shaking is what causes much of the damage from dog bites. Punctures arent as much of an issue as deep cuts from pulling away or the dog shaking and pulling.

[Gadfly]

I always hold out the back of my hand to a new dog, from few feet away. I usually kneel down to not look big and scary. Most dogs slowly approach and sniff my hand for a few seconds. This is what I expected. I will definitely keep my strong hand back from now on.

As a child, my family owned a Great Dane named Fred. Fred would not play with a tennis ball, as it was too small for his mouth. He loved to play with a football. He would hold the center in his mouth and your job was to grab the pointed ends and pull. Tug of war was his thing. One day while playing, I heard the pop and watched the ball deflate. Biting through a full size NFL football takes some power. I should have been more respectful of that power.

[Malamute]

I always hold out the back of my hand to a new dog, from few feet away. I usually kneel down to not look big and scary. Most dogs slowly approach and sniff my hand for a few seconds. This is what I expected. I will definitely keep my strong hand back from now on.

As a child, my family owned a Great Dane named Fred. Fred would not play with a tennis ball, as it was too small for his mouth. He loved to play with a football. He would hold the center in his mouth and your job was to grab the pointed ends and pull. Tug of war was his thing. One day while playing, I heard the pop and watched the ball deflate. Biting through a full size NFL football takes some power. I should have been more respectful of that power.

I often greet unknown dogs with "Hi good dog, how are you?". Some seem to respond well to being called good dog, many just dont seem to be distracted by it either way.

I was bit in the face as a small kid by a neighbors GS. It didnt seem to affect my liking of dogs overall. I try to be careful. Dogs are unknown quantities, though most have been OK to me. They seem to know when you like them, or dogs in general.

The first Mal I had, I'd give her deer leg bones. In 20 minutes she'd have eaten it, down to the knob on the end.