Page 16 of 33 FirstFirst ... 6141516171826 ... LastLast
Results 151 to 160 of 325

Thread: Pistols (and pistol mounted optics) I saw this week

  1. #151
    Site Supporter
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    ABQ
    Quote Originally Posted by TC215 View Post
    Work is sending me to his instructor class in April. I'm really looking forward to it.
    I am trying to go to his AIWB and Red Dot three day combined course in El Paso in March, after the local SO's course in February. Instructor course next year.

    pat

  2. #152
    Member SoCalDep's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    The Secret City in Tennessee
    Quote Originally Posted by Controlledpairs2 View Post
    SoCalDep, do you mind sharing which McMaster screws you ordered and are testing? How has that been going? I had Leupold send me a batch of OEM DPP screws as I am approaching an annual maintenance, inspection, and potential remount.
    Thanks in advance.
    I ordered button head and socket head screws but I don’t think they’d work well. I’m using alloy steel M4 x 0.7 x 16mm hex drive flat head screws (part #91294A194). As I mentioned in the other post, the head is wider than the countersink for the DeltaPoint Pro screws, so the top of the head sits slightly proud of the DPP body. It’s not the prettiest setup (See below).

    Up to last week I had a bit over two thousand rounds with it on a Staccato P-DPO and it was holding zero. I used 30 in/lbs on this one and did one of my partners’ P-DPOs the week prior with those screws at 28 in/lbs to see how that works – His DPP was having the same problem mine was with the optic being able to shift in the pocket, causing the zero to wander. Well, getting ready for a 1911/2011 class over that weekend his DPP moved. He mounted a Holosun with a Dawson plate for the class and had no issues.
    I will discuss it in more detail in the next post, but my DPP moved halfway through the first day of the two-day class (as did two student’s DPPs) and I used my C2 with Dawson plate and SRO on day 2 with no issues.

    So in short, I don't have a DPP solution for the Staccato and I removed it. I'm now awaiting a Dawson Holosun plate for the P.




  3. #153
    Member SoCalDep's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    The Secret City in Tennessee
    Having been a while, here’s some updates… Lots to talk about so I’m going to break this up into a couple posts.

    When we started the optic program we let the user mount the optic or we did it if they weren’t comfortable. After a little while we started telling the students to come to the class without the optic mounted so we could do it. Later we realized that cure time is a thing so we had them come before the class if possible. Now (starting in around April of this year), our personnel are required to have pistols inspected and optics mounted by our armory staff or two of us who teach the optic class.

    At first I was doing what everyone else does by simply entering the information necessary for our computer records (basically noting I mounted an optic on a particular person’s particular pistol). I realized that I could have some worthwhile statistical data if I tracked details over time, so I developed a form that allows me to record the details of mounting optics. I started doing that in August of this year but I have some notes going back to June, so I’m now at 71 optics mounted in the last six months with specific records for torque, materials, components, etc. I’ve probably actually mounted more like eighty or so in that time and a couple hundred or so total, but without records it doesn’t really matter. Also – This is just me and doesn’t count the optics mounted by the other instructors or armory staff.

    For some more numbers, if my records are correct, we’ve done forty optic certification classes through my Department with 254 of our people completing the course and 122 people from thirty outside agencies for a total of 376. We still have one class to go this year. That doesn’t count the private contract training classes, which add 60 to 80 more people to those numbers. We’re now getting regular students in other in-service training (1911/2011 classes, state-mandated recurrent training, firearm instructor schools, etc.) that are running optics, so we’re seeing more use over time. There are departments and agencies that have done more people/guns, but I’m trying to track as much information as possible, hopefully finding as many of the “problems” I can so we can solve them.

    So now lets talk about classes and guns/optics we’ve seen recently…

    In late October I was able to attend a ballistic shield class put on by Tacflow Academy. The class was very good with lots of force-on-force. Every “scenario” allowed you to be part of the team, a bad guy, or a hostage. As to how that applies here, it was the first class where I was able to use an optic-equipped pistol (dedicated sim upper with RMR) for sims, and it was my first opportunity to use a pistol optic with a shield. I found the optic very effective and had no issue finding the dot.

    My Surefire X300U took a direct hit in the second scenario… in the light… when the weapon-light wasn’t on. I know the argument is constantly “they’ll shoot at the light” but in most lighting conditions they can see and will shoot at you. If the gun is centerline (like when we’re aiming or presenting it) and the opponent is aiming center mass… Your light, or optic, or face might get shot… or your gun-hand middle finger – that got hit on the first scenario. I wore gloves after that one.

    Another thing I noticed during the live-fire shooting involved shooting my Glock 34 with a Holosun 507C mounted. I had decided prior to the class to give the 32moa circle-only a try with the shield (I’ve played with it before and liked it…) since we’d be shooting from mid-day into darkness. That lasted about 25 rounds. I found that (as I mentioned) while I liked it during previous shooting sessions, shooting one-handed with the shield, the movement of the circle was so busy in the window it was very distracting. I could see the target but then there was red going everywhere. Nope. Back to the dot and all was well. Not saying the circle is bad or doesn’t have its place – but it’s not the solve-all… at least for me.

    Of the (I think) sixteen students from five agencies attending that class I think only two weren't running optics, and their department is looking into authorizing them. Guns included Staccatos, A Sig P226 with an optic, Some Glocks, an M&P or two, and the iron sight guns were Sig classic series but I don't know what model.

    Also – Visible lasers, when used with proper understanding and in the right context – are rad. I’ve been using lasers off and on for 20 years and 19 in law enforcement and used to be a huge fan. With the development of better weapon-mounted lights and pistol-mounted optics I'd come to the opinion that other than CCW or backup guns, they were pretty obsolete. They are applicable enough in certain circumstances that a major municipal SWAT team is buying a bunch for their guys. I still think the optic is a way better all-around, but I’m less in the “lasers are obsolete” camp again for a few reasons and the timing works well because I will be teaching a laser pistol class later this month.


  4. #154
    Member SoCalDep's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    The Secret City in Tennessee
    And now for part 2...

    We ran a pistol optic class for the department in the middle of November – standard 16hrs with around 1,000 rounds fired. We had twelve students, and all but one were from my department. The other was from a local department in the area.

    Guns/optics are as follows:

    M&P 4.25” O.R. / Holosun 508T
    M&P 4.25” O.R. / Trijicon SRO
    Glock 34MOS / Aimpoint ACRO P-1
    Sig P226 Legion / Holosun 508T (Apparently the C&H plate for the Sig P320 fits… Go figure)
    M&P 4.25” O.R. / Holosun 508T
    M&P 5” O.R. / Holosun 508T
    M&P 5” O.R. / Holosun 507C
    Glock 17 / Holosun 509T
    Glock 34MOS / Trijicon SRO
    M&P 5” O.R. / Holosun 507C
    M&P 5” O.R. / Holosun 508T
    M&P 5” O.R. / Trijicon RMR-manual adjust

    I don’t think there were any significant pistol or optic related problems in the class.

    A week later we had an in-service training class for a couple specialized detective units within our department. Eight of the ten attendees had optics on their pistols. It wasn’t a super-high round count class (maybe 300 rounds) but there were no issues with optics. One Staccato was having almost constant failures to lock the slide to the rear on an empty magazine and had some feeding issues. It will be going in for warranty…again.

    Pistols/optics were as follows:

    Sig P226 Legion / Sig Romeo 1Pro
    Sig P226 / Iron sights
    Sig P226 Legion / Sig Romeo 1Pro
    Staccato P / Trijicon SRO
    Glock 17 / Iron Sights
    Glock 19 / Trijicon SRO
    Staccato C2 / Trijicon RMR-manual (gun ran flawlessly which is my general experience with C2s)
    M&P O.R. / Holosun 508T
    M&P O.R. / Trijicon RMR-manual
    Glock 34MOS / Trijicon SRO

    Last week we had another department 1911/2011 certification class. Round count is around 600-700 I believe over the two days. There were nine students including two from an out-of-state local law enforcement department. There were only two students running iron sights, and one of those was running a Staccato – He’ll be throwing an optic on his pistol as soon as he gets all his equipment and gets into an optic class.

    Guns/optics…

    Staccato P / Leupold DeltaPoint Pro
    Staccato P / Leupold DeltaPoint Pro
    Staccato P / Holosun 508T
    Staccato P / Trijicon RMR-manual
    Staccato P / Iron sights
    Staccato P / Trijicon SRO
    Staccato P / Got distracted and didn’t write it down
    Staccato P / Got distracted and didn’t write it down
    Springfield Armory MC Operator .45 / Iron sights

    Most of the guns functioned well. One student was putting a lot of pressure on the slide with their thumb and causing failures to feed and eject. He was starting to get the hang of it (a bit) by the end of day one, but then got sick (the next day he thought he had Covid but tested negative) and didn’t return for day two.

    Had another student who was having some trouble with thumb placement regarding the safety and slide and had a few (infrequent but enough to know he wasn’t doing it right) malfunctions on day one and a couple early on day two. Ultimately this is a training issue BUT I’m leery of 9mm 1911s that are so easily influenced in a negative way when other guns aren’t. That’s why I think the shorter barrel and more positive slide return of the C2 makes it more reliable.

    Now for the complaining to start…

    I’ll start with the Staccato since that was the most recent class.

    I HATE the direct-mount for the Leupold DeltaPoint Pro. The pocket allows too much movement of the optic and the removable metal boss posts are positioned to the rear of the slide’s threaded holes. This means there is less distance between screws and bosses compared to if they were mounted in the forward position and allows even more movement within the pocket.

    You can mount the optic on the slide and snug the screws (not tight – just snug) and wiggle the optic side-to-side. I’ve heard that the DPP has had bad batches of screws. I’ve bought alloy steel screws with beefy heads and tried those. I’ve torqued up to 30 in/lbs. I think every one of us (my fellow instructors) has been able to grab the DPP when torqued down tight and, using our hand, twist it in the pocket and make the dot move.

    I thought maybe my beefy screws had fixed the problem until day 1 of the 1911/2011 class. I don’t know if I hit the optic on the holster, if it moved on its own, or what, but while the screws were still tight the zero had shifted two inches right (at 15 yards). I twisted it more and the first shot off a bag was almost four inches right - then the optic moved (I could see the dot was in a different position relative to the irons) back to 2 inches. I twisted it the other way and it was pretty much dead on. I checked the screws, and they were still tight. I have a Dawson/Staccato Holosun plate on the way. No more Staccato/DPP for me. Oh yea – This also happened to both other instructors AND the two Staccato/DPP students. All the guns had a zero that would wander 2”-4” at 15 yards. I can’t remember any issues with the Dawson plates coming loose. I'm not a huge fan of the DPP in general so it's not a big deal but it's frustrating.

    We recently received a Bushnell RXS-250 optic for evaluation. I mounted it on the Staccato-P and it seems a much better fit in the pocket than the DPP. I haven’t shot it yet but hopefully in this month’s pistol optic class we’ll put some rounds through it and twist on it a bit to see what happens. I don't have much of a comment on the Bushnell yet but we were asked to give it a look so we will.

    The Staccato P with the RMR (in the 1911/2011 class) had the optic mounted that morning and early on day 2 it came loose. He had purchased one of the plates from C&H to mount the optic and the plate wedges in using two tabs into the front of the optic pocket and uses one beefy screw to attach it to what was the screw holding the rear sight/cover plate in place. That rear screw had come loose. I cleaned it, degreased the threads with a commercial firearm degreaser, and re-installed it with Loctite 248 as was done before. The student contacted me after the class to let me know it had come loose again.

    This could have been caused by not letting the Loctite cure. It could be some defect in the mount. There could have been enough stress on the screw prior to re-mounting to affect the integrity of the screw. That’s me saying I don’t know. I told the student that if he wants to use the C&H plate he should request a new screw and we’d re-install, this time letting it cure the 24 hours.

    This is the first C&H Staccato plate I’ve seen and therefore it’s anecdotal, but something to note.

    Speaking of C&H… I like them in general. They do make good stuff and are responsive to the needs of the industry. That said, nothing is perfect. I had someone come in recently to mount a Trijicon RMR to his M&P Optic Ready. The RMR would not fit on the plate. I couldn’t tell for sure but it seemed the bosses didn’t line up with the recesses in the optic correctly. I checked on a Glock MOS plate, a C&H Glock plate, and a factory S&W CORE plate and the RMR fit on all of those, but absolutely would not go on the C&H M&P plate. I ended up using a S&W factory metal plate to mount the optic and he said he was going to contact C&H.

    Since we’re talking about Trijicon, lets go down that road. In the last couple months I had one RMR come in for a battery change because the user said the battery had died.
    He'd carried it for around six months then switched to another optic-equipped gun. After sitting in the safe for three months it was no longer functioning. We tried three different batteries and it was the optic that had died. He was going to contact Trijicon to fix it and I'm sure they will/did but I haven't heard back from the person.

    More recently in one of the October classes, one of my fellow instructors (I forgot to report it on the a previous update because it was an instructor and not a student) had his RMR start shifting zero. It was tight but the dot started moving. He’s a great shooter so I thought it was weird that he wasn’t hitting. After some investigation we could see it had shifted 2” at four yards. Then I went to shoot it and while I was shooting it shifted again another two inches. He checked it again and confirmed 4” of shift at four yards. Like I said, nothing is perfect. I like Trijicon products but sometimes poop happens.

    Now on to Smith & Wesson.

    Not a super huge deal, but now my optic mounting kit includes a hammer and punch for the extractor pin. I’ve had three M&Ps come in where the pin is proud of the optic pocket and won’t allow the plate to sit flush. Not the worst thing in the world but something to be aware of. What’s more frustrating is that (as others have reported) I’ve had more than one M&P come in with threaded screw holes that were VERY tight. On one gun I had to use the screws included with the M&P because both the McMaster alloy steel and Trijicon factory screws wouldn’t fit. On a more recent one, the person brought in an M&P and when I went to test fit, the McMaster screws were a no-go, especially on the right side screw. The Trijicon factory screws were a no-go as well. I ended up using McMaster stainless screws which did end up working, though they were pretty tight as well. I don’t think they would have worked if I hadn’t tried to thread the other screws several times prior.

    Similarly, I recently attempted to mount a CTC optic to a S&W Shield Plus Optic Ready pistol. The screws included with the optic would in no way work. I found it odd since CTC optics are very associated with S&W. The came back a couple weeks later with a Holosun 507K and the C&H plate for the Shield Optic cut. The included screws wouldn’t work (too big) and when I checked with a MOS DPP plate they fit, so they’re M4 x 0.70mm metric screws. Luckily the stainless steel 6-32 x ½” screws I have worked with the Shield Plus threads so I installed the optic with those.

  5. #155
    Site Supporter JSGlock34's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    USA
    Looks like FCD plates for Staccato are coming…
    "When the phone rang, Parker was in the garage, killing a man."

  6. #156
    Good to hear JSG glad to support another Tx company, where did you see it?

  7. #157
    Site Supporter JSGlock34's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    USA
    Post on ARFCOM...
    "When the phone rang, Parker was in the garage, killing a man."

  8. #158
    @SoCalDep

    I elected to try the Romeo1Pro, largely due to various reports of agency adoption and your experiences in this thread. Thus far I’ve been quite pleased with it.

    A few weeks ago I attended a training event and due to the weather I chose to shoot from my OWB belt setup rather than deal with hours of wet and cold, layers, and shock cords using concealment. My holster was a Safariland 6390 without the hood/optic guard (it came that way - would love to know where to find a replacement), which I believe may have been much of the problem. Anyhow, fifteen minutes in the downpour and the optic lens acted like a collection bucket for water. Firing did dislodge some of the water but certainly did not clear it. The glass looked kind of like frosted shower glass. The dot was probably a 20-30ish MOA blob with light scatter around it. After firing a few rounds, a slightly smaller blob. Another observation was that it does not appear that water has anywhere to go, due to the lack of drainage holes (I don’t know if this makes a substantial difference). I spent most of the day guarding the optic from the rain after this. For what it’s worth, I was able to shoot a fist-sized group at 7yds with the optic in this condition; I just wouldn’t want to do anything requiring precision when so distorted.

    What has been your experience with the Romeo1Pro and your water immersion tests? Do you/your department have any procedures to mitigate the effects of rain/etc. when using open emitter optics?

    Yes, I know the obvious solution to this issue is an ACRO P2 and that is on the list eventually, once Q5 of 202X finally arrives. After the P1, however, I’m not rushing to be an early adopter.

  9. #159
    Member SoCalDep's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    The Secret City in Tennessee
    Quote Originally Posted by ssb View Post
    @SoCalDep

    I elected to try the Romeo1Pro, largely due to various reports of agency adoption and your experiences in this thread. Thus far I’ve been quite pleased with it.

    A few weeks ago I attended a training event and due to the weather I chose to shoot from my OWB belt setup rather than deal with hours of wet and cold, layers, and shock cords using concealment. My holster was a Safariland 6390 without the hood/optic guard (it came that way - would love to know where to find a replacement), which I believe may have been much of the problem. Anyhow, fifteen minutes in the downpour and the optic lens acted like a collection bucket for water. Firing did dislodge some of the water but certainly did not clear it. The glass looked kind of like frosted shower glass. The dot was probably a 20-30ish MOA blob with light scatter around it. After firing a few rounds, a slightly smaller blob. Another observation was that it does not appear that water has anywhere to go, due to the lack of drainage holes (I don’t know if this makes a substantial difference). I spent most of the day guarding the optic from the rain after this. For what it’s worth, I was able to shoot a fist-sized group at 7yds with the optic in this condition; I just wouldn’t want to do anything requiring precision when so distorted.

    What has been your experience with the Romeo1Pro and your water immersion tests? Do you/your department have any procedures to mitigate the effects of rain/etc. when using open emitter optics?

    Yes, I know the obvious solution to this issue is an ACRO P2 and that is on the list eventually, once Q5 of 202X finally arrives. After the P1, however, I’m not rushing to be an early adopter.
    Sorry for the delayed response...

    It sounds to me like your optic was affected more by condensational fogging than by the rainwater itself. First off, I'm no weather expert... I live in South-Central California and work in Southern California... That means when it rains the public runs screaming for cover and panemonium ensues. Because of this much of what I know about weather and its effect on optics comes from experimentation. That said, we have had some good rain (and snow where I live) over the past few years so there's that. Still, it's nowhere near what some others here have dealt with so input from others would be beneficial as well.

    Water (other than condensation) impacts performance of our optics in three ways. First, if the optic is not water resistant or is defective, it makes the optic fail (I've seen them just die, others have water intrusion into the emitter area which results in a distorted image of the reticle, etc.). At first I felt bad for squirting water on the student's optics and breaking them, but now I pre-warn them that I'd rather have the optic fail in the class than in the field. Of all the optics we've exposed to water I think there's been two that had distortion in the emitter and one that died. So, not so common.

    The second and more obvious impact is water on the optic window. With rain, this is going to be in the form of drops. Fogging is a different thing. Much of the water will fall away as the pistol is presented and there should be clear areas of the optic window one can use to find the dot... If there is a dot.

    The third impact is blocking the emitter which can result in a distorted image, multiple images, a red (or green) haze on the window, or nothing. In this case, one should revert to iron sights or, if time allows, give the optic a shake to see if they can dislodge the water from the emitter area.

    As you mentioned, Trijicon has generous holes in the sides of the optic body to allow water to drain away from the emitter. Holosun open-emitter optics have much smaller holes. Leupold DeltaPoint Pro and Sig optics don't have drain holes. I have found that sometimes the water doesn't affect the latter any more than the former, but sometimes it's significantly worse. It's not something that can't be dealt with by (as you mentioned) holsters and treatments and backup iron sights, but it's enough that I don't use Sig optics and my Deltapoints are either on offset rifle mounts or on fun guns.

    Even being in CA, I still like closed emitter optics enough that my everyday carry gun is an M&P 2.0 frankengun with a 4.25" upper on a compact frame. It sports an ACRO. My duty M&P has an ACRO P-2 and my duty Glock 45 (for when I change my mind... again) has a Holosun 509T.

    So now let's add condensation to the picture. Condensation occurs when a surface is below the temperature of the dewpoint. The dewpoint is the temperature where the air can no longer hold any more water and condensation in the form of dew or frost occurs. This is what causes the "fogging" that we see on optic windows. It can occur due to the weather itself, or "micro-climates". If an optic's temperature is close to the dewpoint, simply grabbing the optic to rack the slide or placing the optic in an IWB holster can result in fogging because body heat and humidity cause the dewpoint in that immediate area to rise. This can also occur by going from cold (outside) to indoors or into a heated vehicle. It is why when it's cold and raining or snowing glasses can fog.

    Since condensational fogging occurs when something is colder than the dewpoint, car defrosters apply heat to the windows... This brings the window's temperature above the dewpoint and allows the little micro-droplets of water to evaporate away.

    I think your bigger problem (and may be wrong) wasn't so much the rain but the condensation. It can occur on the window (occlusion) and it can occur on the emitter which can distort the dot as you experienced or make it go away altogether. That's why I prefer to use anti-fog treatments rather than things like Rain-X on open emitter optics. I can deal with the rain but don't want fogging. If you use an anti-fog like Cat Crap, don't forget to treat the emitter window as well and it probably requires frequent re-applications (I'd say at minimum every few days). One of the few reported cases of fogging from field use on my department involved moving from cold, rainy outside into a heated patrol vehicle. The fogging was minimal and the dot on the RMR was still visible, but it had been about two weeks since his last application of Cat Crap. Again, there are those out there with more experience than me due to being in a wetter and/or colder climate.

    Lastly, don't make the mistake of trying to use both Rain-X and an anti-fog. They work in opposite ways (Hydrophobic vs. Hydrophillic) and trying to use both can have very adverse results. Ask me how I know.

  10. #160
    Posting this here, in case you are mounting optics to the 320.

    I recently bought two plates for the 320 with the PRO/RMR cut for the RMR/SRO/507. You need to specify Trijicon or Holosun when ordering to get the proper length screws.

    First kit was for the SRO, and arrived with two sets of screws. I picked the longer ones, since I was mounting a Trijicon. Using those screws, I couldn't chamber a round, and quickly figured out that the right screw was impinging on the channel with the spring. Went to the short screws, and all worked.

    This week, I received a kit for the Holosun. Two sets of screws were included and I used the shorter ones. Same problem, wouldn't chamber a round. I looked into the stripped slide with a light, and could see the screw impinging in the hole. Have now filed the right screw down, and function seems proper. Just provided this feedback to CHPWS.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

User Tag List

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •