Lightweight PCC on a budget?

[DMF13]

Let me ask you a question about all this...

So I have a suppressed 9mm AR now with a Colt-style lower and an upper that is for all practical purposes integrally suppressed. This keeps me from using this gun for PCC due to the rule against silencers (which I totally get, by the way). if the gun runs fine now, would you expect that the PSA upper you link to would drop right onto my current lower and run *ok*?

And it looks like for $250 you get the complete upper, including bolt? So outside of optic it would be everything I'd need? Maybe at most add the buffer and spring you suggest? (the parts in mine now are a buffer and spring from a factory Colt 9mm AR I had)?

So your question caused me to recheck the add, and I just saw that upper has a Glock specific bolt, and not a "hybrid" bolt. My apologies for leading you astray with my suggestion above, and I will say this again in a separate post for the OP, to help ensure he sees it too. The bolt with that upper will only work with the Glock style lower, and again I apologize for missing that originally. I haven't seen a Glock specific bolt offered there before, only the "hybrid" bolts, and I completely overlooked that detail.

With regard to the rest, my understanding, and I'm no expert (not even close), is the stock Colt bolt is slightly heavier than the "hybrid" bolts that PSA and others have been using to make the bolt work with both "Colt style" mags, and "Glock" mags. So the theory, as I've been told, behind the heavier buffer, is to get a combined weight of the bolt and buffer up to the weight used in the Colt factory guns. I don't mess around with silencers, so I haven't looked into how any of that is affects buffer weight.

Supposedly the theory on the spring, is the flat wire spring holds the bolt closed with more force when the bolt is forward, but because of the mechanics of the flat wire spring, it has about the same force as a standard carbine spring when the bolt is to the rear. All of that, combined with limiting the travel of the bolt/buffer with a spacer or longer buffer, are supposed to soften the cycling.

Whether that theory is correct with regard to mechanics I don't know. The first of my friends/acquaintances to get a PSA AR9 got a "Colt style" gun with the "hybrid" bolt. A few of us really liked it, and bought various iterations of barrel lengths and "Glock style" lowers, all with the "hybrid" bolts. When we all commented on how much harsher the cycling was on our guns, the first guy explained the issue with buffer length/weight, and the use of the AR10 flat wire spring. We all tried it and liked it.

ETA:
I see this in the listing for the upper
"To be used with Palmetto State Armory 9mm lowers that use Glock®-style magazines."

which has me concerned re: dropping it onto my Colt-pattern lower...

See my note above, again when I read your comment I went and looked again, and realized I missed that detail. I really am sorry for that. My understanding is that's due to the bolt used, but PSA customer service might be able to tell you if that's the case.

ETA2:
maybe since what I have is an SBR anyway, I should just go this route. Says
"To be used with Palmetto State Armory 9mm lowers that use either Colt® or Glock®-style magazines."

Yeah, that's got the "hybrid" bolt, and should work with a lower that takes "Colt style" mags.[/QUOTE] Again, sorry for causing confusion.

[DMF13]

Not including optics and mags, you could get a nice setup, right now, for under $500, with a LRBHO.

$200 (with free shipping) PSA "Colt style" lower: https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-...r-classic.html

$250 (with free shipping) PSA 16" upper: https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-...654485801.html

For the OP, and anyone else who might be inclined to follow this advice, rob_s picked up on the fact I missed the fact the upper I suggested, that is on sale, has a bolt that is specific to use with a "Glock style" lower, and will not work with the lower I suggested. I apologize for any confusion my oversight may have caused.

To use the upper that's on sale, you would either need a "Glock style" lower, which means you won't get the LRBHO, or you will need a different bolt if you wanted a "Colt style" lower.

To use a Colt style lower, a better option would be:
$300 16" upper with hybrid bolt: https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-...165448961.html

or

$330 16" upper with hybrid bolt: https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-...165448589.html

Again, I apologize for missing that detail, and for any confusion that may have created. Thanks to rob_s for pointing out the error.

[rob_s]

So your question caused me to recheck the add, and I just saw that upper has a Glock specific bolt, and not a "hybrid" bolt. My apologies for leading you astray with my suggestion above, and I will say this again in a separate post for the OP, to help ensure he sees it too. The bolt with that upper will only work with the Glock style lower, and again I apologize for missing that originally. I haven't seen a Glock specific bolt offered there before, only the "hybrid" bolts, and I completely overlooked that detail.

With regard to the rest, my understanding, and I'm no expert (not even close), is the stock Colt bolt is slightly heavier than the "hybrid" bolts that PSA and others have been using to make the bolt work with both "Colt style" mags, and "Glock" mags. So the theory, as I've been told, behind the heavier buffer, is to get a combined weight of the bolt and buffer up to the weight used in the Colt factory guns. I don't mess around with silencers, so I haven't looked into how any of that is affects buffer weight.

Supposedly the theory on the spring, is the flat wire spring holds the bolt closed with more force when the bolt is forward, but because of the mechanics of the flat wire spring, it has about the same force as a standard carbine spring when the bolt is to the rear. All of that, combined with limiting the travel of the bolt/buffer with a spacer or longer buffer, are supposed to soften the cycling.

Whether that theory is correct with regard to mechanics I don't know. The first of my friends/acquaintances to get a PSA AR9 got a "Colt style" gun with the "hybrid" bolt. A few of us really liked it, and bought various iterations of barrel lengths and "Glock style" lowers, all with the "hybrid" bolts. When we all commented on how much harsher the cycling was on our guns, the first guy explained the issue with buffer length/weight, and the use of the AR10 flat wire spring. We all tried it and liked it.

See my note above, again when I read your comment I went and looked again, and realized I missed that detail. I really am sorry for that. My understanding is that's due to the bolt used, but PSA customer service might be able to tell you if that's the case.
Yeah, that's got the "hybrid" bolt, and should work with a lower that takes "Colt style" mags.

Again, sorry for causing confusion.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for replying back. I imagine that's why the Glock-only one is on "clearance" and the "hybrid" that's supposed to work with both is the new hotness.

Still, >$350 to get a complete new upper and be able to PCC is great. Thanks for the links!

If I didn't already have the Colt-pattern lower I'd almost certainly go Glock-pattern, as that's my standard (pretty much only) handgun pattern.

[DMF13]

Again, sorry for causing confusion.

Thanks for replying back. I imagine that's why the Glock-only one is on "clearance" and the "hybrid" that's supposed to work with both is the new hotness.[/QUOTE]No, thank you for catching that error. I'd hate to see someone get an upper and lower that were incompatible.

Still, >$350 to get a complete new upper and be able to PCC is great. Thanks for the links!

Yeah, when I got my lower it was $220, and the upper was $330. I had to add a brace, for another $100, and at $650 total I thought I was still getting a bargain! I have seen complaints about not feeding HP ammo with the "Glock style" lowers, but I've had zero problems with mine.

If I didn't already have the Colt-pattern lower I'd almost certainly go Glock-pattern, as that's my standard (pretty much only) handgun pattern.

I got mine because I have tons of 9mm Glock mags, a couple of my friends went Glock style because they live in CO, and can't get the Colt mags. However, if I were competing with it (or at least seriously competing with it), I would have gone "Colt style" for the LRBHO. The buddy that has the Colt style PSA gun, has been very pleased with his. The lack of LRBHO bothers me, but I can live with it, since it's not for any serious purpose. Once you're used to shooting guns with a LRBHO, it is annoying to shoot a gun without it.

[GuanoLoco]

It is my understanding (not experience) that there is a newer unique cut in the bottom of the bolt to clear the Glock magazine. IOW you have to accommodate the Glock but the Colt is a given. Double check all this, it is just my hunch.

Glock lowers need ramped bolts.

I would not use a PSA 9mm lower with anything other than a matched PSA upper.

[Up1911Fan]

Sorry if I gave the wrong impression...... I skipped on the MPX....... but they can be had for just over a grand if you know the people with the power.

Wow, the LEO price is considerably more than that. Come on Sig.

[JRB]

Potentially dumb question - Is the Colt 6951 just overpriced for this, or does it suck for some reason? It seems that the only drawback is the proprietary Colt style magazines.

[Mark D]

I'd like to get a PCC as well, so I'm watching this closely. Couple additional data points:

1) The New Frontier stuff seems decent based on a sample size of 1. My buddy assembled a Glock-mag lower and upper from them. I've shot it and it's very nice. He hasn't had any issues with it and shoots it in USPSA and Steel Challenge.

2) Stern Defense has a conversion kit you can put into a 5.56 lower. It has LRBHO and Military Arms Channel has a favorable review https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siavaA2mWms

Stern Defense also offers a complete upper reciever, and if memory serves you buy the complete 16" upper and the lower conversion kit for $650-ish. If it runs, that seems like an easy way to get into PCC. Especially if you already have a bunch of Glock mags.

[GuanoLoco]

I'd like to get a PCC as well, so I'm watching this closely. Couple additional data points:

1) The New Frontier stuff seems decent based on a sample size of 1. My buddy assembled a Glock-mag lower and upper from them. I've shot it and it's very nice. He hasn't had any issues with it and shoots it in USPSA and Steel Challenge.

2) Stern Defense has a conversion kit you can put into a 5.56 lower. It has LRBHO and Military Arms Channel has a favorable review https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siavaA2mWms

Stern Defense also offers a complete upper reciever, and if memory serves you buy the complete 16" upper and the lower conversion kit for $650-ish. If it runs, that seems like an easy way to get into PCC. Especially if you already have a bunch of Glock mags.

My Yankee Hill Colt and New Frontier Armory Glock lowers both ran like a boss. The PSA lower was a POS and NEVER ran right.

[nate89]

I've built and help build about half a dozen PCCs for myself and some local USPSA guys. I think the QC010 and JP lowers are some of the best out there right now. I personally like the Colt lowers, but the glock ones work well also, mostly personal preference. I use a Vltor A5H4 and rifle spring in a standard carbine RE and that works well for 130-ish PF handloads. Very mild recoil and enjoyable to shoot. I have also loaded some 124 coated bullets with Clays powder down to about 100 PF for my younger brothers to mess around with and those are incredibly enjoyable to shoot.

My current upper is a Faxon upper, barrel, and bolt with an ALG handguard. It has been incredibly reliable and has shot everything I put through it.

Another option would be to look at the bolt and barrel kits from CMMG that use their new delayed opening blowback design (I forgot exactly what they call it). For about $375 you get a bolt and barrel, just pick and handguard and upper. That should decrease felt recoil. I'm actually very interested in picking that up sometime soon and giving it a try. Just be aware it might not work with all lowers, especially colt lowers like mine with the feed ramp on the lower.