Raw speed

[JHC]

Aren't most standards a compromise of what is historical, what is economical, and what is attainable with reasonable effort?

If by "most" that is the majority of all US LE that could be. I don't think that's the case with those who shoot a lot of people, often.

[psalms144.1]

Aren't most standards a compromise of what is historical, what is economical, and what is attainable with reasonable effort?

No, yes, and maybe. Historical only in so far as most still revolve (pun intended) around 6-shot strings; yes, because most agencies want to spend as little money as practical on any training, and ammo is expensive; and maybe, if by "attainable with reasonable effort" you mean designed so a blind paraplegic can pass 90-95% of the time with no effort.

[11B10]

I hesitate to say "necessary", but I'd say it's a really really good idea.

I think a lot of it is skill dependent. Some folks have never trained, and have no place to practice, shooting on the move. I try to instill a crawl/walk/run approach. Without getting way off topic, when you add mental load, people forget to do other stuff. Get someone concentrating on moving, their grip goes to shit. Get them concentrating on their grip and movement, they forget to use the sight, etc. So, you have to build it up block by block. Get one step subconscious then add another.

So, for beginners I recommend they get a good hit on their opponent, then move. Simply because when they try to draw on the move, their movement is slow, their draw is slower, and they miss more. Get the hit THEN move. As they get progressively more skilled, then incorporate movement during the draw, shooting on the move, etc. There's a huge difference in what someone like Gabe White can do and what Joe Snuffy the newbie can do, but Newbie may still have to perform in real life before he gets better.

Trying to learn Tom Givens' system in my dryfire/drawing practice was a freaking train wreck until I started taking things separately and slowed down. What was very encouraging was when I DID slow down and began taking things one at a time, how quickly the different elements of this type of training came together. Very far from perfect, but still "at it!"

[GJM]

It's fascinating to me that there's so much GOOD discussion in a topic which could easily devolve into so much interwebz derp. Thanks to everyone for participating.

Agreed -- very refreshing to have a interesting software discussion without butt hurt.

I had taken as gospel that the combination of solid manipulations, great accuracy and reasonable speed was the 99 percent solution, and that extreme speed was mostly germane to gaming. The murders in Anchorage and my recent square range shooting experience with that young man, made me question my belief on the modest speed part, especially at engagement distances inside ten yards where marksmanship proficiency is diminished by proximity.

Pure speculation, but just as the "average person" supposedly can fire .25 splits at close range, I guesstimate that the average person draws in the 1.50-1.75 range. With all the caveats about maintaining situational awareness, great tactics, etc, if you can draw and fire two to three accurate shots in less than 1.50, it would seem to be a meaningful advantage. I am not sure that the work it takes to get a concealed draw well below one second pencils, but the ability to make a one second draw and two accurate .25 splits seems time well spent.

[Doc_Glock]

Random fly by thoughts:

Draw Speed: draw speed is important, but, the main limiter to draw speed is processing time for the decision to draw. That is on the order of seconds, not tenths of seconds. To me that is where the real speed gains are found. We rarely train the skills necessary to get the decision making right before the draw.

Training: I love what Gabe says about the enthusiast. Learn to shoot as fast and accurately as within your abilities. I try to get fast shots on to a 2"'circle at 5 yards. That is difficult for me and of I ever get decent at it I will put the target back a couple. Find your weakness and work on that.

Regarding hits: agreed CNS hits are instant fight stoppers, but I also feel that in a real engagement you take what you can get, and hits aren't nothing. I recall an experienced armed forces gunfighter describing an engagement with a running adversary. It was shoot until they fell away from cover, then shoot until they stopped moving. His word of I recall correctly were: "slow them, cripple them, kill them."

I also recall how Southnarc talks about "reducing" an adversary.

[STI]

Regarding hits: agreed CNS hits are instant fight stoppers, but I also feel that in a real engagement you take what you can get, and hits aren't nothing. I recall an experienced armed forces gunfighter describing an engagement with a running adversary. It was shoot until they fell away from cover, then shoot until they stopped moving. His word of I recall correctly were: "slow them, cripple them, kill them."

I also recall how Southnarc talks about "reducing" an adversary.

From an effectiveness and survival viewpoint I fully agree.

It may be a sidetrack, but I'm curious how this approach plays out as a CCW shoot in a left America state.

[ranger]

So, if the discussion is draw speed and hits on target quickly - besides lots of practice, cat like reflexes, and perfect situational awareness - what pistol system facilitates this need for speed and hits? TDA, Striker without safety, Striker with safety, or 1911 style?

Example - I struggle with TDA first shot speed. I am drinking the PX4 coolaid but I am measurably slower draw and hit with PX4 first shot DA versus my M&P 1.0 9mm FS or 1911 SA RO 9mm.

[LSP552]

So, if the discussion is draw speed and hits on target quickly - besides lots of practice, cat like reflexes, and perfect situational awareness - what pistol system facilitates this need for speed and hits? TDA, Striker without safety, Striker with safety, or 1911 style?

Example - I struggle with TDA first shot speed. I am drinking the PX4 coolaid but I am measurably slower draw and hit with PX4 first shot DA versus my M&P 1.0 9mm FS or 1911 SA RO 9mm.

The TDA is not an impediment to speed. My best draw speed and hits have come from TDA. A good DA allows you to get aggressive on the trigger once a decision to shoot has been made. This aggressive stroke helps ME prevent a right now problem snatching the trigger that I've watched a lot of striker shooter struggle with.

Any system can be shot well at speed. It's really a preference and finding what works best for the individual. The problem with TDA is so few people can really teach it.

[psalms144.1]

Pure speculation, but just as the "average person" supposedly can fire .25 splits at close range, I guesstimate that the average person draws in the 1.50-1.75 range. With all the caveats about maintaining situational awareness, great tactics, etc, if you can draw and fire two to three accurate shots in less than 1.50, it would seem to be a meaningful advantage. I am not sure that the work it takes to get a concealed draw well below one second pencils, but the ability to make a one second draw and two accurate .25 splits seems time well spent.

Back in the age of the dinosaurs, when I first attended FLETC's "Reactive Shooting Instructor Training Program" we did (on the last full range day) a series of decreasing time exposures of turning targets. All the students were on the 5 yard line, and the drill was get a hit as fast as you could. Every time the targets turned, they faced for a fraction of a second less time. We started with 2.5 seconds, and when you couldn't get a hit in time, you came off the line. Last man standing was "beat" by a .5 second exposure.

Now, this is flat range repetitive training where we knew (a) the target WOULD turn (no OODA loop, just pure reaction) and (b) the instructors would take any bullet hole anywhere on the BIG silhouette as a "hit." We also were standing on the line in polos with exposed, no retention holsters. The point is, some folks are just plain WICKED fast on their reaction times. At my last team, when we had nearly limitless range time and ammo, I got most of my guys down to the point where they could make a hit on a 5" shoot-n-c at the 7 yard line in a second or less (again, not from concealment, OWB kydex holsters).

The flip side is the "average" non-shooter LEO that I deal with now, who has trouble making a hit from the holster in 3 seconds - no concealment, no retention. Why? Because they don't shive a git. Maybe they'll get motivated when someone else is threatening them, but I think it's more likely they'll poop their pants and drop their pistol on the draw (if they draw at all).

What's my point? I don't think there's any such thing as an "average person" when it comes to armed conflict. Dedicated, motivated and trained people will excel. Some folks will excel from sheer raw talent and/or dumb luck. And some folks who should CRUSH their opponents will go down, because Murphy.

In my book, it's tactics and marksmanship that will trump. If you're thinking through the fight, seeing what you need to see, and you can put your rounds where you want them, then fractions of seconds aren't likely to make a difference. Doesn't mean you might not get shot in the process, but, as every knife fighter knows - everyone in a "knife fight" is going to get cut. You just have to cut them better and faster in the process...

[Caballoflaco]

@GJM this is an interesting topic. Is this the shooting you're talking about in Anchorage.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.adn...tType=amp-type

Eta:

Updated story from above https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.was...8dc_story.html

Looks like two of the folks killed went to investigate a fight and shots fired with poor situational awareness and got ambushed.