Why you shouldn't search with a weapon-mounted light on a handgun - Massad Ayoob

[GearFondler]

I agree with you 100% that a WML for the average CCW holder is completely superfluous. In fact, I personally think that this is a modern fad in my generation because of the influence of call of duty, where you "need" to put a bunch of accessories on your weapon. Because of that, people think that using a "bare gun" is inadequate, and thus "need" accessories like WMLs, red dot optics, threaded barrel, etc.

As you said, not only are there legal ramifications for using your WML to "search and identify/destroy", but making your handgun look like an offensive, and not defensive, weapon makes it harder to defend in court that you used your weapon defensively.

Where I disagree with you is use of WML in a home. You may need it for long guns, which require two hands, but if your night stand gun is a handgun, then even here you don't need a WML. You also don't even need a separate flashlight. The reason is because modern smartphones have powerful flashlights and can sufficiently illuminate a very dark room or hallway. Also, as you are searching your home for the source of the suspicious noise, you can hold the pistol in one hand, smart phone with flashlight in the other hand, and simply turn on the light switches to illuminate the whole house.

The primary application of a WML is clearing a dark house room by room that you don't know anything about what is inside.

All I'm going to say to this is that trying to use a cell phone as any kind of tactical light strikes me as a really, really, poor decision.

[pmandayam]

All I'm going to say to this is that trying to use a cell phone as any kind of tactical light strikes me as a really, really, poor decision.

They used to say this about smart phone cameras too, that they are inadequate and you need to use a dedicated camera. But technology has come very far now that cell phone cameras are very, very good, and you would need a multi-thousand dollar dedicated camera to beat it.

Cell phone cameras keep getting better and better with every new release. In fact, that's one of their major selling points to upgrade your phone.

The modern smart phone has become a multi-media or multi-purpose tool. This also includes the flashlight. In time, the flashlight on the phone can be as powerful as most dedicated flashlights, and it's already getting there.

Regarding "tactical "use" of the cell phone flash light, well, in a home invasion, you can use it to dial 911 and talk to operators while at the same time use it as a flashlight to search your home! (while turning on the house lights of course). And it is bright enough that it will illuminate your entire room. Go into your basement or a dark room, turn off all the lights and close the door and window, and turn on your phone light, you will see how bright it is.

[okie john]

They used to say this about smart phone cameras too, that they are inadequate and you need to use a dedicated camera. But technology has come very far now that cell phone cameras are very, very good, and you would need a multi-thousand dollar dedicated camera to beat it.

Cell phone cameras keep getting better and better with every new release. In fact, that's one of their major selling points to upgrade your phone.

The modern smart phone has become a multi-media or multi-purpose tool. This also includes the flashlight. In time, the flashlight on the phone can be as powerful as most dedicated flashlights, and it's already getting there.

Regarding "tactical "use" of the cell phone flash light, well, in a home invasion, you can use it to dial 911 and talk to operators while at the same time use it as a flashlight to search your home! (while turning on the house lights of course). And it is bright enough that it will illuminate your entire room. Go into your basement or a dark room, turn off all the lights and close the door and window, and turn on your phone light, you will see how bright it is.

Mas is pretty good at this stuff.

The issues are tactics and ergonomics, not candlepower. Mobile phones are not phones. They're handheld computers that you can use to talk to people. They're designed first to look good so they sell, second to work well as hand-held computers, and third (maybe) so you can talk on them. They're a bitch to handle smoothly and effectively when your pulse is 170 BPM.

• Light attracts bullets, so you don't just turn the light on and walk around like Barney Fife. Flash briefly, then move instantly before someone shoots at where the light used to be.
• You have to look at your phone to turn on the light, which means you're not looking at the problem. While you're doing that, you're lighting up your own face. Light attracts bullets, so maybe don't light up your own face in a gunfight.
• Talking (or any other noise) reveals your position. Another horrible idea. The 911 operator ain't there to guide you through a manhunt. They'll tell you to drop the gun, seek cover, and wait for help. If you simply MUST clear the house, then let someone else handle the comms, or handle them yourself after your hero moment passes.
• Turning on house lights is a horrible idea. You know the layout of your own home so it's easy for you to move in the dark. Turning on lights destroys that advantage. And if the bad guys are in parts of the house that are still dark, then you just made it easy for them to see you and kill you while making it harder for you to return the favor.

Do a Google search for "low light tactics" and get some training. And just buy a freaking Surefire...


Okie John

[rob_s]

A few weeks ago I was made aware of someone who caught a boatload of felony charges because he investigated a suspicious vehicle that happened to be full of lost teenagers. He investigated with the light mounted on his pistol...meaning he pointed a gun at multiple minors who posed no reasonable threat to anyone.

Certainly his decision making in "investigating" a vehicle on a public road in the first place is the root of the problem, but had he been using a regular flashlight and a holstered gun he'd likely not be facing such life-altering consequences.

Pretty sure I wrote an article for SWAT many years ago that included this story but...

When I lived in the 'burbs I woke up one night in my second floor bedroom, with a window out to our street that was maybe 25 feet from the front door, to hear female voices yelling "run him over again". Looked out the window and saw a car pull off and some sort of large mass in the road. My first thought was "these spoiled ass boca bitches just ran somebody down!" then I started thinking that I have no idea who else was in that car, or what their intentions were. Grab gun, go downstairs, and just as I'm about to open the front door they come back. Somewhere along the line I figure out that the large mass was a giant snake (it's a problem in SE Florida) and that while yes these were certainly little boca bitches, they were only little boca bitches and hadn't killed anyone, nor was there any other nefarious dood hiding in the car unseen.

Had I gone charging out there brandishing my gun, I'd certainly have faced a similar fate. However, I didn't want to not help a potentially injured person, but also didn't want to end similarly injured myself.

The article was about the fanny pack that I set up for "checking bumps in the night" that I used for years in the 'burbs, at hotels, etc.

Now that we live faux-rural, I rarely hear bumps and even more rarely get up for them, but if I did wandering around in my underpants with a gun attached to my flashlight wouldn't really be an issue.

I still keep a handheld with the gun.

[Clusterfrack]

Wandering around in your underpants toward an angry giant python with tire marks seems risky for obvious reasons...

Pretty sure I wrote an article for SWAT many years ago that included this story but...

When I lived in the 'burbs I woke up one night in my second floor bedroom, with a window out to our street that was maybe 25 feet from the front door, to hear female voices yelling "run him over again". Looked out the window and saw a car pull off and some sort of large mass in the road. My first thought was "these spoiled ass boca bitches just ran somebody down!" then I started thinking that I have no idea who else was in that car, or what their intentions were. Grab gun, go downstairs, and just as I'm about to open the front door they come back. Somewhere along the line I figure out that the large mass was a giant snake (it's a problem in SE Florida) and that while yes these were certainly little boca bitches, they were only little boca bitches and hadn't killed anyone, nor was there any other nefarious dood hiding in the car unseen.

Had I gone charging out there brandishing my gun, I'd certainly have faced a similar fate. However, I didn't want to not help a potentially injured person, but also didn't want to end similarly injured myself.

The article was about the fanny pack that I set up for "checking bumps in the night" that I used for years in the 'burbs, at hotels, etc.

Now that we live faux-rural, I rarely hear bumps and even more rarely get up for them, but if I did wandering around in my underpants with a gun attached to my flashlight wouldn't really be an issue.

I still keep a handheld with the gun.

[El Cid]

They used to say this about smart phone cameras too, that they are inadequate and you need to use a dedicated camera. But technology has come very far now that cell phone cameras are very, very good, and you would need a multi-thousand dollar dedicated camera to beat it.

Cell phone cameras keep getting better and better with every new release. In fact, that's one of their major selling points to upgrade your phone.

The modern smart phone has become a multi-media or multi-purpose tool. This also includes the flashlight. In time, the flashlight on the phone can be as powerful as most dedicated flashlights, and it's already getting there.

Regarding "tactical "use" of the cell phone flash light, well, in a home invasion, you can use it to dial 911 and talk to operators while at the same time use it as a flashlight to search your home! (while turning on the house lights of course). And it is bright enough that it will illuminate your entire room. Go into your basement or a dark room, turn off all the lights and close the door and window, and turn on your phone light, you will see how bright it is.

No. Just… no. Please get some training from a professional.

[jnc36rcpd]

My former department had a recurrent annual crisis when we needed to run qualifications for executives who were "too busy" to make it to training days. In one low light qualification where flashlights were authorized, a major pulled out his cell phone to use the flashlight function.

Over forty years in the department. Pretty much all in the office.

I didn't usually listen to tactical opinions from the employees or the contract range, but I agreed completely with their opinions on that embarrassment.

[mmc45414]

Most folks I know carry one gun and, come bedtime, set that same gun on the nightstand. Is that so uncommon? Are there hoards of people out there who have guns they carry, and then another set of guns for defending the homestead?

I don't know about "hoards", but that's what I do. I have a dedicated nightstand gun with a mounted light. I shoot it just often enough to make sure it's in good operational condition and that's it. No light on my carry gun.

My routine is (most) every weekend I shoot one of my 5" M&Ps, and (most) every day I carry my 4" M&P (with a little J-Frame sprinkled in when it is hot or cold). And at the end of the day I have it with me when we take the dogs out, and I park it in the little compartment in our headboard (when I slide it out in the morning the dogs jump up because they know that means it is time to go out).
But next to the bed I also have a lockbox that has my first 5" M&P in in, with a Streamlight with a pressure switch on it. Part of this is that it might as well be there instead of in the safe with the other two. I also decided that if there was ever a circumstance that I thought I may want a WML, that would not be the time to be farting around putting a light on a pistol.

The correct answer is to have both.

So yeah, I like having both. And even though I do not see any very probable situation where I would need to be packing one around, I finally stepped up and got a couple of holsters, one IWB and one OWB. Might get another one, maybe one of the JMCK Range/Competition versions and put a paddle on it sorta like the fanny bag idea, of not having it in your hand if having it in your hand would be a bad idea (right now it sits in a IWB that could get shoved in my pants.
I am also thinking about setting up another 4" for a RDO, maybe if I did I would also get gear to have a light on it if I wanna.

Or...and I know this is radical...I can turn the fucking lights on in the house.

One of the circumstances I could see wanting to actually carry something with a light might be in a disaster aftermath. A few years ago here we had some devastating tornados (nineteen separate touchdowns in a single night) and power wasn't something we could count on for many days. Things never did get sporty at all (really almost NO looting) but if things had been it would have been one of those improbable occasions that I would probably be out and about kitted up to a higher level. ETA: And for sure have a powerful handheld.

And if I think I might need a WML it would be too late to be buying holsters, so I decided to buy the two I have and have them (I used to just leave the lockbox gun in condition three). Last year I also shot a low/no light match that was really fun and enlightening (I may be distantly related to @blues ...) and I did PCC, but you had the option to do pistol instead, maybe this year I will, and would need a WML holster.

But all of this is a byproduct of not dithering all my investment into various things that are similar (just got my M&Ps, no Glocks, no 320s...). If I focus on having one flavor of pistol it is not such a big deal to have some gear for it I might not ever use.

[blues]

Last year I also shot a low/no light match that was really fun and enlightening (I may be distantly related to @blues ...) and I did PCC, but you had the option to do pistol instead, maybe this year I will, and would need a WML holster.

I think you probably owe me money...but I digress...

[pmandayam]

Do a Google search for "low light tactics" and get some training. And just buy a freaking Surefire...

This is taking it too far for a regular home owner defending his home. The goal in this situation is not to immediately kill the home invaders, but instead kick them out or stop the threat primarily, and if that doesn't work, then you can use use deadly force. But sneaking around in your house with the lights off and sniping the home intruders in the cover of dark is just cringe and can get you into some legal troubles.