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Thread: Input on Current Project

  1. #1
    Member John Hearne's Avatar
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    Input on Current Project

    Several months ago, I was taking Ken Hackathorn's Intermediate and Advanced Handgun class. Something that Ken said has stuck with me and I was trying to pin down some specifics. Ken said that there are four kinds of people when it comes to guns - the incompetent, the competent, the good, and the great. Ken said that in order to win armed encounters, you don't need to be great but you do need to be good. His point seemed to be that the vast majority of armed combatants were incompetent some were competent but that these probably consisted of 95% of the gun carrying population (my numbers not his IIRC). His point seemed to be that if one was "good" you were better than 95% of the threats you'd likely face. I've been wondering for some time where the line between competent (is mostly safe, know the fundamentals of marksmanship but has to work hard to apply them, etc) and good lies. In other words, at what point are your skills good enough to carry you through most situations.

    At this point I'm soliciting what benchmarks or standards you use to distinguish the various levels of competence. I'm a fairly visual person and came up with the chart below to throw out some of my ideas on the subject. I'd like to see as many benchmarks as possible and would be fascinated/amazed if there was some consensus.

    This is what I came up with, what do you think:


    I'd like to focus on reality over theory so for instance, in my mind, the person who just barely passes your typical POST qualification may not even be competent but they may be on the high side of incompetent. A shooter capable of cleaning (shooting 100%) a typical POST is probably "good" but not necessarily "great."

  2. #2
    Member TheTrevor's Avatar
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    I'd put 7-sec FAST times into "good" territory, and 5-sec times halfway into "great".

    I think passing the POST qual should at least get you to the low side of "competent".

    I'm not Hack but I think there's a distinction to be made between incompetent (i.e. dangerous to self, others) vs not competent (needs improvement but is aware of such). Too nuanced a distinction when speaking to a class, but I certainly consider those to be separate categories, i.e. dangerous idiot vs beginner.
    Looking for a gun blog with AARs, gear reviews, and the occasional random tangent written by a hardcore geek? trevoronthetrigger.wordpress.com/
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  3. #3
    Site Supporter JodyH's Avatar
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    USPSA-A should be borderline great.
    Definitely higher than IDPA expert.
    "For a moment he felt good about this. A moment or two later he felt bad about feeling good about it. Then he felt good about feeling bad about feeling good about it and, satisfied, drove on into the night."
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  4. #4
    Member orionz06's Avatar
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    I am not so sure I would rank IDPA Master as high as a 5.0 FAST, perhaps around the 6.0 FAST.
    Think for yourself. Question authority.

  5. #5
    John, the problem I have with this is using a short format static tests like FAST and more comprehensive assessments like classifications in the same scale.

    And there is absolutely no way USPSA A class is lower than sub-6.0 FAST.
    A general consensus is that USPSA A is higher than IDPA Master, a comparison being limited by lack of realistic rating above the IDPA M class.

  6. #6
    Member TheTrevor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YVK View Post
    John, the problem I have with this is using a short format static tests like FAST and more comprehensive assessments like classifications in the same scale.
    100% agree on that point. The ability to shoot a 4.99-second FAST has only the sketchiest relationship to the skills required to make USPSA A or Master.
    Looking for a gun blog with AARs, gear reviews, and the occasional random tangent written by a hardcore geek? trevoronthetrigger.wordpress.com/
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  7. #7
    Site Supporter gringop's Avatar
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    I'm gonna add all 3 Defore pistol tests in the low Great category.
    http://www.kyledefoor.com/2012/02/de...ing-tests.html

    The FBI PQC 80% in the Good, 100% in the Great.

    The 10-8 test, not sure how to rank it, I suck even in the 8 second range.

    I am seeing multiple POST tests online depending on the state. Is there a definitive one that is used?

    I agree that the quick and dirty FAST is not as comprehensive as the others. Probably some correlation but not sure how much.

    And just to stir things up, where is the Combat Master?

    Gringop
    Play that song about the Irish chiropodist. Irish chiropodist? "My Fate Is In Your Hands."

  8. #8
    Member NETim's Avatar
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    Well, this is certainly sobering.

    Oh well. I'll continue to carry.
    In a sort of ghastly simplicity we remove the organ and demand the function. We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honour and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful.” ― C.S. Lewis, The Abolition of Man

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by NETim View Post
    Well, this is certainly sobering.

    Oh well. I'll continue to carry.
    I hear ya brother. Time to hit the range...

  10. #10
    Member NETim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Friday View Post
    I hear ya brother. Time to hit the range...
    'Course terms like "competent" are a matter of perspective. At my little local club, I'm a near great 'cause very few take handgunning as seriously as I do but if I get to a club near large cities (or even mid-sized ones), I'm very much middle of the pack.

    I can consistently break 10 seconds on the FAST drill (with occasional gusts to 8 something), so yeah, I'm not very good in the overall scheme of things.

    But still, it's fun trying, competing and gratifying to see even small improvements here 'n there.
    In a sort of ghastly simplicity we remove the organ and demand the function. We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honour and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful.” ― C.S. Lewis, The Abolition of Man

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