Guns of Professional Gunmen/Gunwomen

[Malamute]

I was going to put an 1895 Guide Gun in 45-70 on my list but my minimal research couldn't tell me if it would have been available at the time. I remember really wanting one at the time when they reintroduced them.

The new version of the 1895 based on the 336 action came out in the mid 70s. It was a 22" barrel half magazine, semi-crescent butt. I dont recall when they started doing the other variants like guide gun, but think it was probably mid 80s?


I had an early one, but have to say once I laid hands on an 1886 I never looked back.


Edit: Re-reading the original post, the being of considerable means would influence me to have many of my choices be engraved by the factory or high quality master engraver. Modest use of gold bands where appropriate.

[BobM]

The new version of the 1895 based on the 336 action came out in the mid 70s. It was a 22" barrel half magazine, semi-crescent butt. I dont recall when they started doing the other variants like guide gun, but think it was probably mid 80s?


I had an early one, but have to say once I laid hands on an 1886 I never looked back.

The Guide Gun came out in the late 90s, I bought a lightly used one in early 99.

[JRB]

You're correct that they let you know when they go off! Supposedly the fastest cycling semi-auto shotgun. I have a Decelerator pad inbound for mine. Won't have to cut the stock as I wear 37" sleeve dress shirts. The thing smokes clays from the 16 yard line like they're deadly foes. (Not my picture)

Attachment 112960

My late uncle had one - and it was the shotgun I used the first time I ever shot clays! I was 12 or 13 and while it made me work to swing it and it kicked hard, for accuracy I felt like it was a cheat code. My brain could deal with rifle sights so much easier than a bead for some reason. I also remember both my Dad and my Uncle scratching their heads at the patterning range, because it shot very tight patterns for being a cyl choke.
My Dad brought his 11-87 that was set up as his bird gun, and while he was absolutely lethal with it, and it was a lot nicer on one's shoulder, it was a lot less consistent on hits for me.
By the end of the session I was routinely hitting doubles from the harder stations with the M1 121. We brought something like 25 boxes of birdshot and and went home with maybe 2 boxes. My shoulder had a bruise that looked exactly like the buttplate on that 121 but I had a grin on my face... very happy memories!
My uncle ended up trading up into an M1 Super 90 sometime later, and my Dad has that shotgun now. But I always wanted to find a wood stocked M1 121 just for the nostalgia of good times at the trap range and out hunting turkeys with my Dad and my Uncle.

[Malamute]

My brain could deal with rifle sights so much easier than a bead for some reason...

I shot an 870 with factory slug barrel with sights at skeet with dad. The traditionalists didnt like it, but when just with a group of friends having fun, Id shoot it and did well. I also shot a savage 24 camp gun some (22 over 20 ga break open), I had him throw the second bird on report, I could reload it most of the time and get the second bird. He never understood how I could shoot rifle sights on skeet or clays in general, it seemed easier to me. On fast stuff Ive mostly looked just over rifle/pistol sights, same as most do with shotguns, or at least how I always thought people did with shotgun bead sights.

[SeriousStudent]

Serious Student:

I will happily pass the word to my son. We should see him tomorrow after he clears work. Likewise, I hope you have a great Christmas as well.

I have a thing for Model 70s. The gentleman who taught me how to handload served in Uncle Sam's Misguided Children in the Pacific as a sniper. His influence was what drove me to the Model 70. That said, pre-64 Model 70s, especially the Supergrade guns are a whole 'nother world of cool. I would love to see yours, especially with the period correct gear.

Hopefully I'll see you at next year's Roundup. We'll need to break bread or have an adult beverage by a campfire and discuss the merits of Model 70s!

Bruce

You have a deal, good sir!

And I am not sure I mentioned it before we all fishtailed out of the parking lot, but I really enjoyed your presentation Monday morning on the guns and gear of the Bureau. I have a 3" Model 10 that @Wayne Dobbs believes passed through the armorer's hands at Quantico. I'll bring it next year for you to shoot.

[Hambo]

1. “Always Guns”/Non-Permissive Environment Guns: These are usually typified by J frame S&W revolvers and small frame autos like the Walther PPK etc.
2. Primary Defensive Handgun-Essentially a service size handgun that you will typically carry on a daily basis. It should be suitable for both concealed and open carry.
3. Defensive Shotgun: Everybody needs a dose of rompin’, stompin’ death and destruction. What’s your choice?
4. Rifle: Your top pick for what Col. Cooper called the “Queen” of Weapons.
5. Adventuring Gun: This is a gun you might pack on a hunt, an Amazon cruise or when excavating a Pharoh’s tomb in Egypt.
6. National Firearms Act Weapons: When the going gets tough, the tough go cyclic. What is your choice?
7. “Other”: This is a category that I haven’t figured out by that might be lots of fun.

1. Lots of choices in that era, all bad. I could go with Bond's 418, but I think the best choice would have been a Colt 1908 .380.
2. Colt Commander, .45 or .38 Super
3. High Standard K120 riot gun
4. Pre-64 M70 in .338 or .375
5. A used pre-war S&W .357
6. MAT-49, a backpack subgun
7. A double rifle, .450 or larger

[Dov]

Folks:

As we approach Christmas and the end of 2023, many of us are blessed with some quiet time sometimes shared with family and friends. If that happens to describe you, may I suggest the following thought experiment: In the year of your birth, you are a professional gunman/gunwoman. You are of significant means, both financially and otherwise. You have the legal authority to carry and deploy firearms. You are keenly aware of the firearms that are available in the year of your birth. You have all of your present knowledge. You have access to the best gunsmiths of the day. You want a battery of capable firearms and have elected to find guns that fit into each of the following categories:
1. “Always Guns”/Non-Permissive Environment Guns: These are usually typified by J frame S&W revolvers and small frame autos like the Walther PPK etc.
2. Primary Defensive Handgun-Essentially a service size handgun that you will typically carry on a daily basis. It should be suitable for both concealed and open carry.
3. Defensive Shotgun: Everybody needs a dose of rompin’, stompin’ death and destruction. What’s your choice?
4. Rifle: Your top pick for what Col. Cooper called the “Queen” of Weapons.
5. Adventuring Gun: This is a gun you might pack on a hunt, an Amazon cruise or when excavating a Pharoh’s tomb in Egypt.
6. National Firearms Act Weapons: When the going gets tough, the tough go cyclic. What is your choice?
7. “Other”: This is a category that I haven’t figured out by that might be lots of fun.


Bruce

Really think ammo selection for the time period should be mentioned as well.

Though I'm not certain what year some loads like Federal BP & BPLE came out in.

[Bruce Cartwright]

You have a deal, good sir!

And I am not sure I mentioned it before we all fishtailed out of the parking lot, but I really enjoyed your presentation Monday morning on the guns and gear of the Bureau. I have a 3" Model 10 that @Wayne Dobbs believes passed through the armorer's hands at Quantico. I'll bring it next year for you to shoot.

Serious Student:

I am glad you liked the presentation. DB asked me to do that and it turned out to be a heck of a lot of fun assembling all the photos and gear. I didn't realize the extent to what I had accumulated over the years.

I will hold you to seeing/shooting your Model 10. There are some subtle things Bureau gunsmiths did to the revolvers that went through the Personally Owned Weapon ("POW") program. The S&W Model 19 I was carrying when I gave the power point presentation, was a POW gun. Hopefully at years round up we can schedule a range for Monday morning to let folks try these guns out. These type of guns were the state of the art of fighting revolvers. The Bureau Gun Vault and other departments' armorers' and gunsmiths did similar things. Most of those subtle modifications are being lost to a generation raised on plastic guns. Hence the reason for the Roundup.

Bruce

[Bruce Cartwright]

Really think ammo selection for the time period should be mentioned as well.

Though I'm not certain what year some loads like Federal BP & BPLE came out in.

Dov:

Actually, that isn't a bad idea. Here is my selection, per category:

1. Always Gun: 38 Special full charge wadcutter. This was a factory loaded round using a target wadcutter over 3.5 grains of Bullseye (which was the standard loading for the 158-grain lead round nose bullet of the day). For reloads, I'd still probably carry the same full charge wadcutters in a 2X2 pouch.

2. Full Size Defensive Handgun: I picked a 1911. My choice would be Winchester Super X 230 full metal jacket ammo which was loaded to about 925 feet per second. Col. Cooper talks about this load in his book: "Fighting Handguns" I believe. It is a heavier load than standard GI ball. Remember this is the early 60s, so Super Vel had not yet come out.

3. Shotguns: Simple 9 pellet 00 buck and 1-ounce Foster type slugs. Not much has changed since the time of my birth. If you can shoot, these loads get the job done.

4. Rifle: My choice was a Winchester Super Grade Model 70 in 30-06. My load would probably be a Winchester Super X 30-06 round loaded with 180 grain bullets. Again, not fancy, but very effective.

5. Adventuring Gun: My pick was a S&W Model 29 with a five-inch barrel. I would have two loads, both handloaded. The one that would see most use would consist of a 44 magnum case, standard large pistol primer, 9 or so grains of Unique and a 250 grain Keith hard cast bullet (Lyman #429421). This will shoot through a whole bunch of whatever gets in front of it. If I need "more" then it would be the same recipe but with 21 grains of Hercules 2400 powder. Velocities for the Unique load would be 1,050 feet per second ("FPS") and 1,250 FPS for the 2400 load. Since this is a time in America before the lawyers terrified everybody, I really wouldn't give a damn about carrying handloads.

6. NFA Weapons: I picked two: An Armalite AR-15 and a H&K MP5. The load for the AR-15 would be factory 55 grain full metal jacket. The MP5 would get fed factory loaded N.A.T.O. 124 grain full metal jacket ammo. Since I am of significant means, as much as I enjoy handloading, I would lay in a stupidly large amount of factory ammo. Think pallet quantities here. While the ballistics of these rounds in terms of stopping threats is not up to today's standards, I would apply the "P" principle-Plenty. it's like voting in Chicago, do it early and often.

7. European Defensive Handgun: I picked the Browning Hi Power. The load would again be N.A.T.O. 124 grain factory ball. For the Walther PPK pocket pistol, it would also be factory 7.65 (32 Automatic Colt Pistol ["ACP]).

Hope that clarifies things a bit. What are your choices?

Bruce

[wrmettler]

I was born in late 1946, literally 10 months after my dad was discharged from the US Army in Fort Indiantown Gap Pennsylvania.

So, the immediate post-war period for me.

1. A S&W M10 with a 3-2" barrel.

2. A Colt 1911, standard government model. No other options at that time.

3. A Browning A5, 12 Guage, but with a longer barrel, perhaps 24-26 inch. I might carefully consider a Winchester M1897 12 gauge. I like that shotgun.

4. A Remington ‘03A3. Reliable and accurate enough.

5. A toss-up. Depends where I’m going adventuring. Either a prewar Winchester M70 30 06 or a S&W 44 Hand Ejector 1st Model New Century, the Triple Lock, 5” in .44 Special.

If to Alaska to pretend I’m Dick Proennecke or to the African Plains, the M70. If to Cairo or the head of the Nile, the S&W.

6. A Browning Automatic Rifle. If I could find an M16 with the M2s still mounted, I might take that.

7. My grail gun: A Colt SAA in .45 Long Colt. No question.

A very difficult proposition. It's "Old-Timey" and there are a lot better options within the last 40 years. Good Thread.